First Noble truth

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indian_buddhist
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First Noble truth

Post by indian_buddhist » Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:57 am

1. There is Suffering in Life

or

2. Entire life is Suffering except when you are in Nibbana?.
Identification with my country is one of my fetters.

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cooran
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by cooran » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:09 am

The First Noble Truth is that life is suffering.

http://www.buddhanet.net/ans16.htm

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Aloka
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by Aloka » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:18 am

Hi indian-buddhist,

You might find this booklet by Ajahn Sumedho on The Four Noble Truths helpful.

http://www.buddhanet.net/4noble.htm

Excerpt from the section on The First Noble Truth:

The First Noble Truth is not a dismal metaphysical statement saying that everything is suffering. Notice that there is a difference between a metaphysical doctrine in which you are making a statement about The Absolute and a Noble Truth which is a reflection. A Noble Truth is a truth to reflect upon; it is not an absolute; it is not The Absolute. This is where Western people get very confused because they interpret this Noble Truth as a kind of metaphysical truth of Buddhism - but it was never meant to be that.

You can see that the First Noble Truth is not an absolute statement because of the Fourth Noble Truth, which is the way of non-suffering. You cannot have absolute suffering and then have a way out of it, can you? That doesn’t make sense. Yet some people will pick up on the First Noble Truth and say that the Buddha taught that everything is suffering.

The Pali word, dukkha, means "incapable of satisfying" or "not able to bear or withstand anything": always changing, incapable of truly fulfilling us or making us happy. The sensual world is like that, a vibration in nature. It would, in fact, be terrible if we did find satisfaction in the sensory world because then we wouldn’t search beyond it; we’d just be bound to it. However, as we awaken to this dukkha, we begin to find the way out so that we are no longer constantly trapped in sensory consciousness.


Kind regards,

Aloka

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tiltbillings
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:32 am

indian_buddhist wrote:1. There is Suffering in Life

or

2. Entire life is Suffering except when you are in Nibbana?.
The answer is #1 with qualifications.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

indian_buddhist
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by indian_buddhist » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:53 am

tiltbillings wrote:
indian_buddhist wrote:1. There is Suffering in Life

or

2. Entire life is Suffering except when you are in Nibbana?.
The answer is #1 with qualifications.
Qualifications meaning we can make it worse or better?. (Like stopping clinging to the 5 aggregates)?.
Identification with my country is one of my fetters.

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tiltbillings
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:12 am

indian_buddhist wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
indian_buddhist wrote:1. There is Suffering in Life

or

2. Entire life is Suffering except when you are in Nibbana?.
The answer is #1 with qualifications.
Qualifications meaning we can make it worse or better?. (Like stopping clinging to the 5 aggregates)?.
One cannot will oneself to stop clinging; that only comes with insight, which is an going process. It is in the "clinging" that one finds both the suffering and the freedom from it.

There is suffering in life, but the point is that we also do have experiences of joy, happiness, contentment and such. These become occasions of suffering if we try to hang onto them, mourn their passing, try to prevent them from changing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Zom
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by Zom » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:12 am

Entire life is Suffering
Not suffering, but dukkha. Dukkha means that life is not satisfactory at its very basic level -- and this includes suffering and pain as well.

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tiltbillings
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:20 am

Zom wrote:
Entire life is Suffering
Not suffering, but dukkha. Dukkha means that life is not satisfactory at its very basic level -- and this includes suffering and pain as well.
As one unpacks the sutta discussions of change and dukkha, we see that life is not satisfactory to hang on to, being empty of any lasting, unchanging reality.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Sam Vara
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:30 am

This might be helpful:
"Monks, there are these three kinds of suffering.[1] What three? Suffering caused by pain,[2] suffering caused by the formations (or conditioned existence),[3] suffering due to change.[4] It is for the full comprehension, clear understanding, ending and abandonment of these three forms of suffering that the Noble Eightfold Path is to be cultivated..."


Notes
1.Dukkhataa, an abstract noun denoting "suffering" in the most general sense.2.Dukkha-dukkhataa, the actual feeling of physical or mental pain or anguish.3.Sankhaara-dukkhataa, the suffering produced by all "conditioned phenomena" (i.e., sankhaaras, in the most general sense: see BD [Buddhist Dictionary (2nd ed.), by Ven. Nyaa.natiloka, Ven. Nyaa.naponika (ed.), Colombo 1972] s.v. sankhaara I, 4). This includes also experiences associated with hedonically neutral feeling. The suffering inherent in the formations has its roots in the imperfectability of all conditioned existence, and in the fact that there cannot be any final satisfaction within the incessant turning of the Wheel of Life. The neutral feeling associated with this type of suffering is especially the indifference of those who do not understand the fact of suffering and are not moved by it.4.Viparinaama-dukkhataa, the suffering associated with pleasant bodily and mental feelings: "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change" (VM XIV, 35).
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html
In terms of the OP question, this seems to imply that Dukkha is all-pervasive, but that physical or mental pain is not. As Tilt says, nothing is worth clinging to.

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Re: First Noble truth

Post by indian_buddhist » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:43 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Zom wrote:
Entire life is Suffering
Not suffering, but dukkha. Dukkha means that life is not satisfactory at its very basic level -- and this includes suffering and pain as well.
As one unpacks the sutta discussions of change and dukkha, we see that life is not satisfactory to hang on to, being empty of any lasting, unchanging reality.
In other words, once we progress on the path we could reduce "Dukkha" (all types of it) to a mere 10% or less?.

This is a crude way of explaining but I hope you get the picture.
Identification with my country is one of my fetters.

SarathW
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by SarathW » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:51 am

Evan Arahants suffer from bodily pain .
Buddha consider them as minor.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: First Noble truth

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:12 am

SarathW wrote:Even Arahants suffer from bodily pain .
But they don't experience this as dukkha?
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by kirk5a » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:20 am

indian_buddhist wrote: In other words, once we progress on the path we could reduce "Dukkha" (all types of it) to a mere 10% or less?.

This is a crude way of explaining but I hope you get the picture.
"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Doshin
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by Doshin » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:36 am

indian_buddhist wrote:1. There is Suffering in Life

or

2. Entire life is Suffering except when you are in Nibbana?.
IMHO:
3. There is suffering

If you expand it by the three aspects, it is:
- there is suffering, dukkha
- dukkha should be understood
- dukkha has been understood.

_/\_
Doshin
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by Dinsdale » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:49 am

kirk5a wrote:
"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
So this is saying the physical pain isn't dukkha?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Mkoll
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by Mkoll » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:25 pm

Doshin wrote:
indian_buddhist wrote:1. There is Suffering in Life

or

2. Entire life is Suffering except when you are in Nibbana?.
IMHO:
3. There is suffering

If you expand it by the three aspects, it is:
- there is suffering, dukkha
- dukkha should be understood
- dukkha has been understood.

_/\_
Doshin
:goodpost:
Suffering is to be fully understood. What I'm quite certain of is that an enlightened one understands suffering on a different level than the worldling.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

SarathW
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by SarathW » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:55 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
"Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
So this is saying the physical pain isn't dukkha?
What I think is that when you relate to five aggregate without attachment, aversion and ignorance you do not think that the five aggregate as I, me or myself.
So there is not footing for Dukkha.
Dukkha is the result of no knowing inconstant, stress and Anatta.
Arahant still feel the cold heat and pain etc.
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

pegembara
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by pegembara » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:13 am

indian_buddhist wrote:1. There is Suffering in Life

or

2. Entire life is Suffering except when you are in Nibbana?.

Not saying that there is pain and suffering all the time. There are many moments of joy and happiness, of course.

But consider this.

All beings that are born has death as a certainty. These are the plain truths.
"There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five?

"'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' This is the first fact that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained.

"'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.' ...

"'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.' ...

"'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.' ...

Upajjhatthana Sutta
"Now this, monks, is the Noble Truth of dukkha: Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."
Quote:
2. Entire life is Suffering except when you are in Nibbana?

Nibbana is not some place you go to! It is the reality of nongrasping as some teachers advise.
"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of dukkha: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving."
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Kusala
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Re: First Noble truth

Post by Kusala » Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:57 am

indian_buddhist wrote:1. There is Suffering in Life

or

2. Entire life is Suffering except when you are in Nibbana?.
Life Isn't Just Suffering ----> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... eisnt.html
Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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