Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

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steve19800
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by steve19800 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:47 am

lionking wrote:
Anger happens you feel you are not being fairly treated. So you can control anger. Tell yourself it could be a misunderstanding even if it appears in the negative.

If it happens again you can remove yourself from the situation. That way you can always control your anger and not allow things to escalate. Anger is an unsophisticated emotion. If you study it well you will realise all it does is harm you more than its intended target.
Would you agree with seeker242 post above, the initial bad thought as in "I hate those people" is without intention, but if you dwell on it, accumulate it then there is intention there?
If through memory or object you see in the present moment it reminds you some of your bad experience you have had in the past. Then your mind starts criticizing the person you have had the bad experience with. Does this criticism create bad kamma? It can happen pretty fast though, maybe in a few seconds, you don't even think of criticism, it just happens automatically.
Last edited by steve19800 on Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by steve19800 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:30 am

SarathW wrote:In regard to OP please see the video in attached link.


http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=25233" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If Ven. Sri Dhammananda says all the thinking are not kamma but only the Cetana is kamma that means P.A Payutto statement is wrong. I haven't listened to P.A Payutto teaching before, I will quote again here from "Good, Evil and Beyond":
At this point we might take some time to broaden our understanding of this word “intention.” “Intention” in the context of Buddhism has a much subtler meaning than it has in common usage. In the English language, we tend to use the word when we want to provide a link between internal thought and its resultant external actions. For example, we might say, “I didn’t intend to do it,” “I didn’t mean to say it” or “she did it intentionally.”
But according to the teachings of Buddhism, all actions and speech, all thoughts, no matter how fleeting, and the responses of the mind to sensations received through eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind, without exception, contain elements of intention.
Maybe other Venerable in this forum could say something about this?
Last edited by steve19800 on Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

pegembara
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by pegembara » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:32 am

Bad thought is a necessary condition for bad karma. The thought "I hate those people" is the seed waiting to germinate. Without the seed, how can there be the fruit. Cause and effect.

Granted "bad" things can still happen even without harbouring "bad" thoughts.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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subaru
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by subaru » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:38 am

What is bad karma (kamma) ?
:candle:

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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by lionking » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:32 am

steve19800 wrote:Would you agree with seeker242 post above, the initial bad thought as in "I hate those people" is without intention, but if you dwell on it, accumulate it then there is intention there?
Well, the "best practice" is to stand back and observe as the hateful thoughts rise and then fall. It should rise and then fade away. The hate does not belong to you if you just ignore it. Its being mindful.
steve19800 wrote:Then your mind starts criticizing the person you have had the bad experience with. Is this criticism create bad kamma?
There is nothing magic about karma-vipaka (cause-affect). Its like traffic laws. Breaking the law has consequences. Sometimes you may break the law intentionally. If the cop is not around you may get away with it too. However as a rule you want to follow the law given it protects you as well as those around you.

So what are the mechanics of Karma-Vipaka ? They say flutter of a butterfly in Argentina can cause a Hurricane in Florida USA. Small scale cause-affects can chain-react and hit you when you least expect. Its similar to Issac Newton 3-rd law - every action as an opposite and equal reaction.

Sometimes the affects (Vipaka) are very obvious. For example you have begun to criticize this person. Observe how you have lost your own inner peace. You feel discomfort, perhaps if its so strong you even forget your own important tasks and events. If it happens often it may even manifest as illnesses. Its unskillful living that has a huge personal cost. The cost you bear is the instant Vipaka for the angry Karma you have generated.

So as a rule generate good vibes not bad vibes.
grr ..

steve19800
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by steve19800 » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:35 am

lionking wrote:
Well, the "best practice" is to stand back and observe as the hateful thoughts rise and then fall. It should rise and then fade away. The hate does not belong to you if you just ignore it. Its being mindful.
It's not really a hateful thought. Sometimes this kind of thought appears suddenly and randomly. Sometimes memory of bad past experience can also comes up without any apparent reason. You see an object, your mind starts to think about something. Where does this thought come from? Do these thoughts create karma, that's something to think I think.

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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by steve19800 » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:36 am

pegembara wrote:Bad thought is a necessary condition for bad karma. The thought "I hate those people" is the seed waiting to germinate. Without the seed, how can there be the fruit. Cause and effect.

Granted "bad" things can still happen even without harbouring "bad" thoughts.
Thanks for your reply.
So in other words, the more we dwell on bad thought the more likely it will become bad kamma then bad vipaka? Unlike bodily action we can say confidently say I don't see those insects therefore there is no intention at all. Thoughts, I think we can only say the initial thought arises is not intended. That means most of us agree with Ven. Dhammananda view about intention.
Thanks SarathW for the video :anjali: I think that is a good Dhamma talk by Venerable, and sorry I am not very familiar with "Javaka."

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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by samseva » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:45 am

steve19800 wrote:Thanks for your reply.
So in other words, the more we dwell on bad thought the more likely it will become bad kamma then bad vipaka? Unlike bodily action we can say confidently say I don't see those insects therefore there is no intention at all. Thoughts, I think we can only say the initial thought arises is not intended. That means most of us agree with Ven. Dhammananda view about intention.
Thanks SarathW for the video :anjali: I think that is a good Dhamma talk by Venerable, and sorry I am not very familiar with "Javaka."
An unwholesome thought is just that. When such a thought arises in your mind, by being mindful you can look at it for what it is; it is only an unwholesome thought and nothing else. Don't identify with it or proliferate on it; just notice it and continue on with wholesome thoughts and actions.

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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by pegembara » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:17 am

steve19800 wrote:
pegembara wrote:Bad thought is a necessary condition for bad karma. The thought "I hate those people" is the seed waiting to germinate. Without the seed, how can there be the fruit. Cause and effect.

Granted "bad" things can still happen even without harbouring "bad" thoughts.
Thanks for your reply.
So in other words, the more we dwell on bad thought the more likely it will become bad kamma then bad vipaka? Unlike bodily action we can say confidently say I don't see those insects therefore there is no intention at all. Thoughts, I think we can only say the initial thought arises is not intended. That means most of us agree with Ven. Dhammananda view about intention.
Thanks SarathW for the video :anjali: I think that is a good Dhamma talk by Venerable, and sorry I am not very familiar with "Javaka."

Even without intention, the preoccupation with bad thoughts causes the birth of self view. Whenever you buy into those stories, a self is born.

Staying at Savatthi... [the Blessed One said,] "What one intends, what one arranges, and what one obsesses about:[1] This is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing [or: an establishing] of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"If one doesn't intend and doesn't arrange, but one still obsesses [about something], this is a support for the stationing of consciousness. There being a support, there is a landing of consciousness. When that consciousness lands and grows, there is the production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is the production of renewed becoming in the future, there is future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. Such [too] is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by RiceMonk » Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:10 am

Kamma just means action - it's the fruit of the action which you should be concerned about. In other words thoughts are just thoughts you can choose to act upon them or not.

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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by Pinetree » Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:56 am

The thoughts are little animals that live together with other entities in the mind ecosystem, they are not independent.

It is useful to distinguish between a thought and the inclination we have towards or against that thought (which sometimes can be very subtle).

Very often, there is some inclination and that inclination certainly causes some karma.

To put it another way - karma is created dependent on how much desire, anger and delusion we see happening around the thought.

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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:06 am

RiceMonk wrote:Kamma just means action - it's the fruit of the action which you should be concerned about. In other words thoughts are just thoughts you can choose to act upon them or not.
Are you sure about that?

Who is in Control?
Series in which Dr David Eagleman takes viewers on an extraordinary journey that explores how the brain, locked in silence and darkness without direct access to the world, conjures up the rich and beautiful world we all take for granted.

This episode explores the great deception that greets us each morning when we wake up - it feels as though we are in conscious control of our lives, but in fact almost every action we take, every decision we make, every belief that we hold is driven by parts of the brain that we have no access to.

Dr Eagleman reveals the electrical storm of unconscious neural activity that accompanies even the simplest of actions. We meet a patient who has lost the ability to walk without consciously controlling every movement. If he's distracted for even a moment he will fall.

To demonstrate the proficiency of the unconscious brain, Dr Eagleman competes with a 10-year-old world champion in the sport of cup stacking. Wearing EEG caps to record their brain activity reveals that although the champion is performing at much greater speed and precision, his brain is almost at rest. When a skill sinks below the level of conscious, controlling this allows for much greater speed and efficiency.

Dr Eagleman reveals that everything from who we find attractive to how we describe the relationship we have with our mother can be influenced by factors that we have no conscious control over. But the unconscious has a dark side, as the story of Ken Parks - who killed his mother-in-law in his sleep - demonstrates. Our consciousness is needed to arbitrate between competing systems in the brain that, left to their own devices, are liable to run amok.

Dr Eagleman ends with a brief journey through free will, and the deep question of whether we have any conscious control over our lives. Although there is tantalising evidence that we can feel as though we are consciously in control when we are not, the experimental jury is still out on whether or not free will is an illusion. However, free will or no free will, the human brain's extraordinary complexity guarantees that life will never feel predictable.
If one habitually thinks evil thoughts, inevitably one will act upon them sooner or later.

Kamma means action by body, speech, or mind. Mental kamma also has consequences. Thoughts of ill-will that arise spontaneously, e.g. when one meets with an enemy or someone who was aggressive in the past, arise spontaneously due to conditions. It is only the training in moral habit that prevents us acting upon those thoughts with harsh words or aggressive physical actions. Your body language will show your aggressive mental state too.
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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by samseva » Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:05 am

Cormac Brown sent me a PM, which I responded with the following. I thought it would maybe benefit some people (with his permission to post the PM).

Hi Cormac,
Cormac Brown wrote:I found this an interesting and helpful comment that you made on this thread and wanted to thank you for it.
You are welcome. Happy it was of some help. :smile:

Regarding the "demolishing" and "wiping out of existence" of unwholesome thoughts, it would be important to see in which Suttas or Sutta these passages are mentioned and most importantly the translator. Further investigation by looking up the Pāḷi would be very useful.

It is true that 'overcoming' (pahāna-padhāna) is one of the 4 Right Efforts (padhāna), however it is one of four (to 'avoid', 'develop' and 'maintain' being the other three). Moreover, it is important to know what is meant by 'overcoming':
(2) “What now is the effort to overcome? The monk does not retain any thought of sensual lust, or any other evil, unwholesome states that may have arisen; he abandons them, dispels them, destroys them, causes them to disappear. This is called the effort to overcome.
A. IV, 14 (trans. Nyanatiloka Thera)
This is a translation of a Pāḷi word, so to get an accurate meaning of the word, a definition would be crucial. I am having difficulty finding the precise definition of the word 'pahāna' in the PTS Dictionary, but parts of entries suggest it means something closer to 'overcome', 'abandonning', 'religinshing', but far from very strong English words such as 'demolishing' and 'wiping out of existence' (the latter possibly was used by the Buddha as a way to put emphasis and energy in his discourse, which is important to identify; again, knowing the passage would be important to understand the context).
pahāna: ‘overcoming’, abandoning. There are 5 kinds of overcoming: (1) overcoming by repression (vikkhambhana-pahāna), i.e. the temporary suspension of the 5 hindrances (nīvaraṇa, q.v.) during the absorptions, (2) overcoming by the opposite (tadanga-pahāna), (3) overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahāna), (4) overcoming by tranquillization (paṭipassaddhi-pahāna), (5) overcoming by escape (nissaraṇa-pahāna).

(1) “Among these, ‘overcoming by repression’ is the pushing back of adverse things, such as the 5 mental hindrances (nīvaraṇa, q.v.), etc., through this or that mental concentration (samādhi, q.v.), just as a pot thrown into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside....
(2) “‘Overcoming by the opposite’ is the overcoming by opposing this or that thing that is to be overcome, by this or that factor of knowledge belonging to insight (vipassanā q.v.), just as a lighted lamp dispels the darkness of the night. In this way, the personality- belief (sakkāyadiṭṭhi, s. diṭṭi) is overcome by determining the mental and corporeal phenomena... the view of uncausedness of existence by investigation into the conditions... the idea of eternity by contemplation of impermanency... the idea of happiness by contemplation of misery....
(3) “If through the knowledge of the noble path (s. ariyapuggala) the fetters and other evil things can- not continue any longer, just like a tree destroyed by lightning, then such an overcoming is called ‘overcoming by destruction’ “ (Vis.M. XXII, 110f.).
(4) When, after the disappearing of the fetters at the entrance into the paths, the fetters, from the mom- ent of fruition (phala) onwards, are forever extinct and stilled, such overcoming is called the ‘overcoming by tranquillization’.
(5) “The ‘overcoming by escape’ is identical with the extinction and Nibbāna” (Pts.M. I. 27). (App.).
Furthermore, I think MN 40 is very relevant for the topic: MN. 20, Vitakkasaṇṭhāna Sutta: The Removal of Distracting Thoughts (trans. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Note that the last one of clenching one's teeth is considered to be a last resort and is simply a physical way to affect one's mind.
Cormac Brown wrote:Would the latter part of your comment be an example of this? I.e. by the very act of non-identifying and "continuing on with wholesome thoughts," would you say that one "demolishes" the unwholesome ones?
samseva wrote:An unwholesome thought is just that. When such a thought arises in your mind, by being mindful you can look at it for what it is; it is only an unwholesome thought and nothing else. Don't identify with it or proliferate on it; just notice it and continue on with wholesome thoughts and actions.
No, I would even say it is the opposite. When an unwholesome thought appears and then vanishes, the thought already came into being and nothing can be done about it. To then take action against this thought is to create further thought related to the unwanted one, which simply put, reinforces the unwholesome thought and upon closer examination, doesn't make any sense (reflecting on the thought with mindfulness, like mentioned in MN 20, is fine, but this and what I am referring to are two very different things; deep reflection isn't the best nor possible in some situations).

By doing this, thought and energy is put forth to try to "stop" an unwholesome thought. In some cases, negative emotions are part of this thought pattern, which creates havoc and in a literal and practical sense creates bad kamma, since it creates the exact "loop" which is described in paṭiccasamuppāda (Dependent Origination), where a kind of "neurosis" (for a lack of a less intense word, although highly accurate) is created.

What needs to be done when an unwholesome thought appears, is to see it for what it truly is, a thought, and to observe it with mindfulness and understanding/wisdom. You don't cling to it (like previously described), nor identify with it, but continue on with what you need to do, which is to create wholesome thoughts and actions (unattached to the unwholesome thought).

I am happy you sent me a PM. However, all this would be beneficial for other members interested. Would you mind if I post the message, with your initial PM, in the thread?

Take care.

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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by RiceMonk » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:41 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:06 am
RiceMonk wrote:Kamma just means action - it's the fruit of the action which you should be concerned about. In other words thoughts are just thoughts you can choose to act upon them or not.
Are you sure about that?
Urr, yes. You say so yourself below. Perhaps I should have gone into more detail but I have a beginner's mind when it comes to instruction you see which is commendable making it impossible to criticise me or else my feelings will get hurt.
Kamma means action by body, speech, or mind. Mental kamma also has consequences. Thoughts of ill-will that arise spontaneously, e.g. when one meets with an enemy or someone who was aggressive in the past, arise spontaneously due to conditions. It is only the training in moral habit that prevents us acting upon those thoughts with harsh words or aggressive physical actions. Your body language will show your aggressive mental state too.
Do you know Vinnaya well? I seem to recall reading in one of the books somewhere (perhaps the Suttavibhanga) that if a monk wishes to reprimand another monk they should do it privately and not in front of other monks. Have you ever read that and if so do you happen to know where it is exactly? I have a friend who ordained and as he knew I once ordained he asked me if I knew exactly where that particular rule was. Thank you Bhante.

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Re: Do bad thoughts create bad karma?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:02 pm

RiceMonk wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:41 pm
Kamma just means action - it's the fruit of the action which you should be concerned about. In other words thoughts are just thoughts you can choose to act upon them or not.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Are you sure about that?
RiceMonk wrote:Urr, yes. You say so yourself below. Perhaps I should have gone into more detail but I have a beginner's mind when it comes to instruction you see which is commendable making it impossible to criticise me or else my feelings will get hurt.
What I said below was:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:06 am
Kamma means action by body, speech, or mind. Mental kamma also has consequences.
Are you a monk? How would I know since you don't include your ordination status in your signature. Are you admonishing me, or are you just averse to your statement being questioned?
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