Exploring the Three Marks.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
culaavuso
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by culaavuso » Wed Aug 13, 2014 6:37 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:
vinasp wrote: In the passage which you cited there is this line:
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"
I think this can be read straightforwardly, ie while ignorance and craving persist, then inconstancy will be stressful. I think an important aspect of inconstancy here is unreliability, which is why the Buddha says the aggregates are not fit to be regarded as self - they are not fit because they are unreliable.
SN 56.11: Dhamma­cakka­ppavattana Sutta wrote: "Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

"And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

SarathW
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:36 pm

The way I understand Anatta means the nature of fabrication around us. (say a house)
Fabricated things subject to impermanence. (Anicca)
Impermanence lead to stress (Dukkha)

You can realise these three in any order you like depend on the strength of the person. (intelligent, faith and concentration)
Breaking the first fetter means to understand one of these three marks.
So you can attain Nirvana by understanding any of these three.

Understanding impermanence lead you to sign-less attainment.
Understanding stress lead you to desire-less attainment.
Understanding Anatta lead you to attainment due realisation of soullessness.

The following link has three good articles "Three basic factors of existence"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bpslist.html
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Dinsdale
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:27 am

Spiny Norman wrote: I think anatta is just the way things are.
So is it true to say that both anicca and anatta are just the way things are, and that dukkha arises when we don't see those characteristics clearly? Or more accurately, our experience is characterised by anicca and anatta?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

SarathW
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by SarathW » Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:16 am

See whether you can relate these three signs to ten fetters.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Dinsdale
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:36 am

SarathW wrote:See whether you can relate these three signs to ten fetters.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html
Was that the link you intended? The So.na Sutta?

"Whatever recluses and Brahmans, So.na, hold views about the body, which is impermanent, unsatisfactory and subject to change, such as 'I am better [than you],' 'I am equal [to you],' or 'I am worse [than you]' [likewise 'feeling,' 'perception,' 'mental formations,' 'consciousness'], what else are they but folk who do not see things as they really are?
"But, So.na, whatever recluses and Brahmans do not hold such views... What else are they but those who see things as they really are?"
Buddha save me from new-agers!

SarathW
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by SarathW » Thu Aug 14, 2014 8:07 am

yes .
What I am trying to say is we have to analyse components in Sutta as a whole.
We should not bog-down in, only one aspect of the teaching.
We should make an attempt to see how each components relate to final goal.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

vinasp
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by vinasp » Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:46 am

Hi dhammafriend,

vincent said:-"I think that we do not understand the aggregates yet, nor how they relate to dependent origination. But to try to answer your question: I meant all the aggregates, not just the sankhara aggregate."

dhammafriend said:-"This is fascinating, can you give an example of how you see it 'working' in the D.O. frame work?"

Dependent Origination / cessation explains how 'this entire mass of suffering' arises, persists for many years, and then ceases permanently at enlightenment.

The five aggregates subject to clinging are also said to be suffering, but I think they are only most of it, not all of it.

When all D.O. items cease that is the cessation of suffering, so it must also be the cessation of the five aggregates subject to clinging. These are said to be dependently originated.

I think that the cessation of the last eight items, from (and including) the six bases can be understood as the cessation of the five aggregates subject to clinging.

Regards, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by vinasp » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:15 pm

Hi Spiny,

Vincent said:-"In the passage which you cited there is this line:
"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

Spiny said:-"I think this can be read straightforwardly, ie while ignorance and craving persist, then inconstancy will be stressful. I think an important aspect of inconstancy here is unreliability, which is why the Buddha says the aggregates are not fit to be regarded as self - they are not fit because they are unreliable."

That is one correct reading, but it assumes that the Buddha is only talking about impermanence in the sense of 'constant change', and suffering as that which results from this change.

But this individual, with ignorance and craving, must also have the other kind of suffering, 'inherent in the formations.'

The question: 'Is the eye permanent or impermanent?,' can be about the actual eye, but it can also be about the 'eye' as a formation.

Regards, Vincent.

Dinsdale
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:24 pm

vinasp wrote: But this individual, with ignorance and craving, must also have the other kind of suffering, 'inherent in the formations.'
It depends how we interpret suffering inherent in the formations, but isn't this also related to inconstancy, unreliability and unpredictability?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:27 pm

vinasp wrote: I think that the cessation of the last eight items, from (and including) the six bases can be understood as the cessation of the five aggregates subject to clinging.
Given the second Noble Truth, could you say why you're starting from the sense-bases, rather than from craving ( tanha )?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

vinasp
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by vinasp » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:15 pm

Hi Spiny,

Vincent said:-"But this individual, with ignorance and craving, must also have the other kind of suffering, 'inherent in the formations.'"

Spiny said:-"It depends how we interpret suffering inherent in the formations, but isn't this also related to inconstancy, unreliability and unpredictability?"

My tentative understanding of 'formations':

The Buddha speaks of 'things' which have arisen, such as views. These things can persist for years.

So, in one sense they are constant and stable. But in another sense they are impermanent because they are dependently arisen and can be made to cease.

These 'things' are identical with suffering, so it is these things which we must try to remove.

The Buddha speaks of 'things' because these are easy to see, but they are only apparent things which result from an underlying process.

The suffering due to change is intermittent, but the suffering which is the formations is always present, until enlightenment.

Regards, Vincent.

vinasp
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by vinasp » Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:55 pm

Hi Spiny,

Vincent said:-"I think that the cessation of the last eight items, from (and including) the six bases can be understood as the cessation of the five aggregates subject to clinging."

Spiny said:-"Given the second Noble Truth, could you say why you're starting from the sense-bases, rather than from craving ( tanha )?"

Some people understand the first five of the six bases as the actual sense organs or the experience of them.

But SN 12.20 says that all six bases are 'constructed'. This means that the first five bases could be the actual organs, or they could be something which is a mental construction.

I think that the 'mental construction' is correct, because the six bases are said to cease, even though the actual eye obviously does not cease.

We do not yet know what this 'eye' which ceases is, but when all six bases have ceased then contact, feeling, and craving, will also have ceased.

Regards, Vincent.

meindzai
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by meindzai » Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:03 pm

SarathW wrote:yes .
What I am trying to say is we have to analyse components in Sutta as a whole.
We should not bog-down in, only one aspect of the teaching.
We should make an attempt to see how each components relate to final goal.
:)
I think we should analyse the suttas very carefully. However I do think that this particular thread has gone down a road of discussion that isn't really that helpful. I had started to reply to it again, but when I realized I couldn't do it without going into the fundamentals of syllogism I gave up.

I could be wrong. It's a judgement the individual has to make, based on how they understand things. If one has a particular doubt in mind then it is sometimes useful to inquire about it further, and sometimes it is better to shelve it and let it work it's way out in practice.

Sorry if this post is to meta.

(But it's not too metta!)


-Dave K

Dinsdale
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:21 pm

vinasp wrote: But SN 12.20 says that all six bases are 'constructed'. This means that the first five bases could be the actual organs, or they could be something which is a mental construction.
I think that the 'mental construction' is correct, because the six bases are said to cease, even though the actual eye obviously does not cease.
Vincent, SN12.20 says that all the nidanas are dependently arisen, so I'm not sure how that supports your position.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

So are you saying that all the nidanas are mental constructions, and if so, where would you place them in terms of the aggregates - presumably as aspects of the sankhara aggregate?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

vinasp
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Re: Exploring the Three Marks.

Post by vinasp » Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:03 pm

Hi Spiny,

Spiny said:-"So are you saying that all the nidanas are mental constructions, and if so, where would you place them in terms of the aggregates - presumably as aspects of the sankhara aggregate?"

No, my opinion would be that all twelve items in D.O. are mental constructions, and when they have ceased then all aggregates have also ceased.

The aggregates are also mental constructions, and are the same as certain items in D.O.

In the same way that I re-interpret the 'eye' as a mental construction, so too I re-interpret 'form' as a mental construction.

This does not mean that there is not an actual body, or actual forms, but that it is the form as a mental construction which ceases. This form as a mental construction is the 'object' of craving and clinging.

The teachings speak of 'a being' (satto) in two ways, one is the actual being, the other is only mental and associated with craving. Both are described in terms of aggregates.

Regards, Vincent.

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