Where does 30 minutes a day of meditation lead ?

[Mkoll]

I'd love to hear of stories of laypeople who have made significant progress on the path. I've not yet been able to track down writings on the topic by a "householder" but I'm guessing they exist.

Upasika Kee Nanayon was a laywoman practitioner who I think made great progress. Listening to her talks, she sounds like a real hardcore practitioner with a no-holds-barred approach in teaching others to kill their defilements. I have respect for her even though I've only listened to some of her talks. They inspire one to practice more diligently.

[No_Mind]

A householder has a lot more challenges than a monk in dealing with attachment etc. But having more challenges may not be a bad thing. If the practises are based around a monastic setting then it would be difficult to transpose them effectively to a lay setting. The practises are evolving e.g. "Contemporary Burmese Theravāda Buddhism is one of the main creators of modern vipassanā practice, which has gained popularity from the 1950's onward." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassana_movement

I'd love to hear of stories of laypeople who have made significant progress on the path. I've not yet been able to track down writings on the topic by a "householder" but I'm guessing they exist.

Please find in the following links the story of Dipa Ma a non-ordained meditator of highest caliber. She lived quite recently (1911-1989). She had reached eighth jhana.

She began meditation in her forties and was the teacher of Sylvia Boorstein, Joseph Goldstein, Jack Kornfield, Michelle Levey, and Sharon Salzberg.

One of the following articles have an interview with Jack Engler who was in close touch with her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipa_Ma

http://www.tricycle.com/interview/enlig ... n?page=0,0

http://awakeningtruth.org/blog/?p=22

http://www.tricycle.com/interview/just- ... s?page=0,0

[daverupa]

Physically, meditation for me is 30 minutes sitting each morning. Being mindful during everyday activities is not what I would call meditation but I can see others might have a different interpretation.

Yet one more facet of just how the word 'meditation' stops being useful; but note that being mindful of everyday activities is encompassed by satipatthana just as much as seated effort, and more:

---

My original interest was vipassana which seems to be one way of doing satipatthana while sitting.

The brahma vihara practices were an eye opener and very beneficial. That got me wondering about using the sitting time wisely.

The Sedaka Sutta discusses how satipatthana is specifically to be done in a comprehensive way; 'just do satipatthana' is not so very simple, you see. A certain 'brahmavihara' practice is already a complementary component, for example, yet many overlook this.

Indeed, have a look at SN 47.40:

Bhikkhus, I will teach you the establishment of mindfulness, and the development of the establishment of mindfulness, and the way leading to the development of the establishment of mindfulness. Listen to that….

“And what, bhikkhus, is the establishment of mindfulness? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body … feelings in feelings … mind in mind … phenomena in phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. This is called the establishment of mindfulness.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the development of the establishment of mindfulness? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the nature of origination in the body; he dwells contemplating the nature of vanishing in the body; he dwells contemplating the nature of origination and vanishing in the body—ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. He dwells contemplating the nature of origination in feelings … He dwells contemplating the nature of origination in mind … He dwells contemplating the nature of origination in phenomena; he dwells contemplating the nature of vanishing in phenomena; he dwells contemplating the nature of origination and vanishing in phenomena—ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. This is called the development of the establishment of mindfulness.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the development of the establishment of mindfulness? It is this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view … right concentration. This is called the way leading to the development of the establishment of mindfulness.”

---

Satipatthana is truly worth developing.

[Sati1]

Thanks Sati1.
I'm grateful you could share this. I suspect I'm not the only one to have had thoughts along these lines.

In this subject there has been a few replies along the lines of "try it, see for yourself, study" which probably underestimates the importance of a teacher. Without that resource forums like this might be an alternative in some circumstances. I'd be surprised to hear of people who have never discussed their experiences with others.

Interesting you should mention the jhanas. I've read a few threads and listened to several podcasts on the topic. There seem to be two divergent views, one where the jhanas are a specific states that take massive amounts of effort to reach and another where the jhanas can be reached with different levels of intensity. Putting a label on a subjective experience is somewhat delicate. There does seem to be a relatively accessible feeling of overwhelming "joy" that can then be followed by a much "clearer" mind and less distractions from the senses. I would certainly hesitate to call this jhana relative to what an experienced meditator might call jhana. I heard about it on http://secularbuddhism.org/2013/04/20/e ... ta-jhanas/ For me, that sequence of overwhelming joy followed by calm can make it much easier to then practise metta or insight. I first got interested in mindfulness, then was told about metta and practised that for a little, then heard of jhana and tried the concentrative style, I think a sequence of concetration->metta->insight would be great if it could be squeezed into 30 minutes I've only managed that a few times so far - often the concentration takes a while to settle. Would be really interesting to hear what sequence unfolds for you in a "typical" 30 minute session.

The book you're referring to might be "In the Buddha's Words" ? I've been reading that and it has been an eye opener compared to how I'd understood Buddhism. The importance of metaphysics, the cosmology, the extraordinary abilities (e.g. walking upon birth) are put front and centre.

Realising that letting go of attachment is not the same as being detached helped. Also the importance of the eightfold path makes it clear that the path is not only about an interior world but just as much about interacting with the exterior world. Those two misconceptions about Buddhism probably discourage further investigation for many people, speaking for myself I backed away from it many years ago because of those misconceptions.

I've found podcasts have been a good resource on the net too. There are a huge number of dhamma talks available.

It would be interesting to know of how far lay people have progressed while remaining a "householder" without Buddhism becoming a way to also generate revenue. The situation I see reminds me a little of entrepreneurship. There are a large number of people who love entrepreneurship and offer services to help entrepreneurs but besides creating a consulting company to sell their (and perhaps colleagues) services they have often never executed on the entrepreneur's path. When an entrepreneur who is busy doing just that takes a few minute to share experiences it is typically far more valuable than what a consultant can offer.

I'm a little isolated in my practise at the moment so this forum is helping to address that.

For the lay person seeing the path as a gradual slope make sense. It was treated as a very steep incline by Gautama!

I hope you'll have the chance to expand on your experiences.

Hi MarkNZed,

I usually devote a given 30 minutes only to breathing meditation or to metta. Most of my sessions are breathing meditation. Often I do some walking meditation afterwards, and throughout the day I try to maintain mindfulness. I know that some people combine metta and breathing meditation. Metta can also get you into jhanas (definitely into the first one), and is therefore also suitable for training in concentration. The book "Who is my self?" by Ayya Khema has useful instructions on meditation technique and concentration.

Yes, that's the book I was refering to.

There definitely is a lot of information out there - essays, videos, podcasts, etc. One can in principle keep oneself very busy just studying. When I first started, I read and listened to anything I could get my hands on about the Dhamma that caught my attention. Then eventually I decided to read less and only seldomly listen to videos or podcasts to devote as much time as possible to mindful investigation of the moment. It is amazing how enjoyable it can be to just "be in the moment", especially if one has sufficient understanding of the Dhamma to have something to investigate (Eg. the 5 aggregates, the arising and ceasing of experiences, etc). For insight, it is also more important to practice mindfulness than to read a lot.

This article might be of interest to you: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm

There are plenty of accounts in the suttas (see this link for references: http://www.buddhistteachings.org/wp-con ... -Entry.pdf), as well as contemporary anecdotal evidence, of laypeople attaining stream entry. It wouldn't surprise me if that was not at all uncommon. So in your place I would feel confident that that is a reasonable goal in this life, and an extremely valuable one. There are also accounts of laypeople getting all the way to anagami. But even if one doesn't become even a stream enterer, it is well worth being diligent about the Path, since one is sure to accumulate plenty of merit for a favourable rebirth, and happiness in this life will doubtlessly improve in the most unexpected ways. I say the latter from my own experience.

Metta,

Andy

[MarkNZed]

My original interest was vipassana which seems to be one way of doing satipatthana while sitting.

The brahma vihara practices were an eye opener and very beneficial. That got me wondering about using the sitting time wisely.

I guess "just do satipatthana" can work really well for some people - you seem to be a case in point. To be fair I did give it a go many years ago. I think part of the reason it did not work out was not having complimentary practises like brahma vihara.

I was given a great analogy of practise having two wings - effort and enjoyment.

The relationship between vipassanā and satipaṭṭhāna might be clarified through reading texts such as

• Samatha and Vipassanā by Piya Tan
• One Tool Among Many by Ven. Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu
• A Swift Pair of Messengers by Ven. Bhikkhu Sujato

Thanks, the vocabulary is confusing - I was introduced to "vipassana meditation" which seems to be a new use of the word from the 19th/20th century. For our discussion it seems right to replace vipassana with insight in my previous message.

Insight meditation (as I was taught) seems to minimise the importance of concentration.

Satipatthana seems to translate to mindfulness http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana With the common term "mindfulness meditation" it adds some confusion too!

So satipatthana develops samatha and vipassana. But satipatthana is not a technique.

The brahmavihāras can also be used to develop samādhi as explained in suttas such as AN 8.63.

My current understanding is that the suttas don't give detailed instructions on meditation technique. Is that correct ?

I found "mindfulness meditation" (which I think is the same as "insight meditation") was great but I did not stick at it. I'm hoping that "mixing it up" with other techniques can make it easier to maintain a daily practise. The techniques I'm aware of are:

* concentration i.e. focus on a single concept
* mindfulness i.e. observe what comes up within various categories e.g. body, feeling, thoughts
* brahmavihāra i.e. develop a wholesome mental state e.g. loving-kindness

It seems many things could be seen to support satipatthana. To the point where "do satipatthana" is perhaps not vey helpful advice for someone getting started. It would be more helpful unpacked into activities/actions.

[MarkNZed]

I'd love to hear of stories of laypeople who have made significant progress on the path. I've not yet been able to track down writings on the topic by a "householder" but I'm guessing they exist.

Upasika Kee Nanayon was a laywoman practitioner who I think made great progress. Listening to her talks, she sounds like a real hardcore practitioner with a no-holds-barred approach in teaching others to kill their defilements. I have respect for her even though I've only listened to some of her talks. They inspire one to practice more diligently.

Thanks. I found http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... namic.html "In 1945, as life disrupted by World War II had begun to return to normal, she gave up her business, joined her aunt and uncle in moving to the hill, and there the three of them began a life devoted entirely to meditation." So we could call her a lay person she was not really a householder. I'm not implying anything negative by that but I'd love to hear about people who maintained a "householder's" role in society while making significant progress on the path.

[MarkNZed]

A householder has a lot more challenges than a monk in dealing with attachment etc. But having more challenges may not be a bad thing. If the practises are based around a monastic setting then it would be difficult to transpose them effectively to a lay setting. The practises are evolving e.g. "Contemporary Burmese Theravāda Buddhism is one of the main creators of modern vipassanā practice, which has gained popularity from the 1950's onward." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipassana_movement

I'd love to hear of stories of laypeople who have made significant progress on the path. I've not yet been able to track down writings on the topic by a "householder" but I'm guessing they exist.

Please find in the following links the story of Dipa Ma a non-ordained meditator of highest caliber. She lived quite recently (1911-1989). She had reached eighth jhana.

She began meditation in her forties and was the teacher of Sylvia Boorstein, Joseph Goldstein, Jack Kornfield, Michelle Levey, and Sharon Salzberg.

One of the following articles have an interview with Jack Engler who was in close touch with her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipa_Ma

http://www.tricycle.com/interview/enlig ... n?page=0,0

http://awakeningtruth.org/blog/?p=22

http://www.tricycle.com/interview/just- ... s?page=0,0

Amazing person! But I would not consider her a "householder" she was a meditation teacher, I guess she was making a living teaching the Dhamma (clearly no problem with that) but it is not a "householder's" role in society. Maybe by definition someone who makes significant progress on the path ends up dedicated to it.

[MarkNZed]

Physically, meditation for me is 30 minutes sitting each morning. Being mindful during everyday activities is not what I would call meditation but I can see others might have a different interpretation.

Yet one more facet of just how the word 'meditation' stops being useful; but note that being mindful of everyday activities is encompassed by satipatthana just as much as seated effort, and more:

I'm not sure it needs to stop being useful, if you want to accept my definition of the word or provide your own then it can become useful again As a discussion gets more detailed it seems reasonable to define general terms specifically rather than universally.

---

My original interest was vipassana which seems to be one way of doing satipatthana while sitting.

The brahma vihara practices were an eye opener and very beneficial. That got me wondering about using the sitting time wisely.

The Sedaka Sutta discusses how satipatthana is specifically to be done in a comprehensive way; 'just do satipatthana' is not so very simple, you see. A certain 'brahmavihara' practice is already a complementary component, for example, yet many overlook this.

Great reference, thank you! As you say 'just do satipatthana' is not so very simple so it could do with some elaboration for those of use getting started.

Indeed, have a look at SN 47.40:

---

Awesome reference. The term contemplating implies thinking which is different form the observing I've been taught about in insight meditation. Would be great to have your thoughts on that

Satipatthana is truly worth developing.

I think I can see why but the how is still not so clear. On one level any progress is good progress but I'd like to be efficient, if possible.

[MarkNZed]

Thanks Andy. There is an information overload when one starts looking! I'm hoping the forum can help cut through some of that. It is reassuring to hear you went through a similar search. I started this thread because I was starting to play around with the sequence when sitting and I thought some fresh perspectives could be a big help.

I'm guessing a lot of people go through a period of learning and then settle on a practise. I imagine there being a sort of circle with practise that leads to some questions then learning that leads to new practise. But I'm with you on the idea of leading with the practise - there is not much point theorising about things one can't use.

Thanks for the encouragement and references!

Hi MarkNZed,

I usually devote a given 30 minutes only to breathing meditation or to metta. Most of my sessions are breathing meditation. Often I do some walking meditation afterwards, and throughout the day I try to maintain mindfulness. I know that some people combine metta and breathing meditation. Metta can also get you into jhanas (definitely into the first one), and is therefore also suitable for training in concentration. The book "Who is my self?" by Ayya Khema has useful instructions on meditation technique and concentration.

Yes, that's the book I was refering to.

There definitely is a lot of information out there - essays, videos, podcasts, etc. One can in principle keep oneself very busy just studying. When I first started, I read and listened to anything I could get my hands on about the Dhamma that caught my attention. Then eventually I decided to read less and only seldomly listen to videos or podcasts to devote as much time as possible to mindful investigation of the moment. It is amazing how enjoyable it can be to just "be in the moment", especially if one has sufficient understanding of the Dhamma to have something to investigate (Eg. the 5 aggregates, the arising and ceasing of experiences, etc). For insight, it is also more important to practice mindfulness than to read a lot.

This article might be of interest to you: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm

There are plenty of accounts in the suttas (see this link for references: http://www.buddhistteachings.org/wp-con ... -Entry.pdf), as well as contemporary anecdotal evidence, of laypeople attaining stream entry. It wouldn't surprise me if that was not at all uncommon. So in your place I would feel confident that that is a reasonable goal in this life, and an extremely valuable one. There are also accounts of laypeople getting all the way to anagami. But even if one doesn't become even a stream enterer, it is well worth being diligent about the Path, since one is sure to accumulate plenty of merit for a favourable rebirth, and happiness in this life will doubtlessly improve in the most unexpected ways. I say the latter from my own experience.

Metta,

Andy

[daverupa]

As you say 'just do satipatthana' is not so very simple so it could do with some elaboration for those of use getting started.

This is where the gradual training comes in, and showcases the difficulty of covering the whole thing with the one term 'meditation'.

Additionally, the repeated descriptions of satipatthana are the foundation for understanding the template to apply to experience: it's either the body you're noting some feelings-&-perceptions about, or it's the fact that there are feelings in this or that sense sphere that come to be noted, or it's one's overall mind state or mood shape that one notes, or it's just any experience of any sort, however it comes to be parsed and understood - in these general ways, one brings mindfulness to bear, and the practice is the act of refining this in one's own case.

Guarded sense spheres is the beginning of this bringing-mindfulness-to-bear, as is daily mindfulness in all actions of body, speech, or mind. These things are not fabulous and enchanting to hear about, perhaps, and they may not trigger the same romantic impulses that the term 'meditation' can, but it's where the gold is.

The term contemplating implies thinking which is different form the observing I've been taught about in insight meditation. Would be great to have your thoughts on that

It's another word hang-up for me, sorry.

Contemplation is one thing. Rumination and papanca are off-target, and count as thinking, so indeed that's no good; but single-minded fixation is off-target to roughly the same degree, and in that case there's no thinking. So using "thinking" as a deciding variable is insufficient, and vague besides.

Bhavana takes mental effort; why 'thinking' has a bad rap is something I shouldn't speculate about, but please note that it's a tool to be used well, not a bad tool to be shunned.

So maybe think of contemplation as sustained observation, but remember that sammavayama - the effort that is integrous to & which underlies satipatthana - involves a certain level of mental action.

Finally, remember that 'contemplates' is an English word, and that its connotative realm may not match that of the Pali.

[MarkNZed]

As you say 'just do satipatthana' is not so very simple so it could do with some elaboration for those of use getting started.

This is where the gradual training comes in, and showcases the difficulty of covering the whole thing with the one term 'meditation'.

Additionally, the repeated descriptions of satipatthana are the foundation for understanding the template to apply to experience: it's either the body you're noting some feelings-&-perceptions about, or it's the fact that there are feelings in this or that sense sphere that come to be noted, or it's one's overall mind state or mood shape that one notes, or it's just any experience of any sort, however it comes to be parsed and understood - in these general ways, one brings mindfulness to bear, and the practice is the act of refining this in one's own case.

Guarded sense spheres is the beginning of this bringing-mindfulness-to-bear, as is daily mindfulness in all actions of body, speech, or mind. These things are not fabulous and enchanting to hear about, perhaps, and they may not trigger the same romantic impulses that the term 'meditation' can, but it's where the gold is.

The term contemplating implies thinking which is different form the observing I've been taught about in insight meditation. Would be great to have your thoughts on that

It's another word hang-up for me, sorry.

No need to apologise. You are probably struggling to imagine what it is like to know a lot less

Contemplation is one thing. Rumination and papanca are off-target, and count as thinking, so indeed that's no good; but single-minded fixation is off-target to roughly the same degree, and in that case there's no thinking. So using "thinking" as a deciding variable is insufficient, and vague besides.

Bhavana takes mental effort; why 'thinking' has a bad rap is something I shouldn't speculate about, but please note that it's a tool to be used well, not a bad tool to be shunned.

So maybe think of contemplation as sustained observation, but remember that sammavayama - the effort that is integrous to & which underlies satipatthana - involves a certain level of mental action.

Maybe contemplation is observation leading to an insight - some comprehension that can then be thought about. Not comprehension arrived at through rational thought.

Finally, remember that 'contemplates' is an English word, and that its connotative realm may not match that of the Pali.

[upekha]

MarkNZed wrote

I'd love to hear of stories of laypeople who have made significant progress on the path. I've not yet been able to track down writings on the topic by a "householder" but I'm guessing they exist.

There is a website where letters written between a laywoman and a meditation teacher are available.She is of Sri Lankan origin and attained Anagami level . You can access the letters in the blog.

http://comemeditate.webs.com/

Very inspiring stuff.

with metta

[MarkNZed]

MarkNZed wrote

I'd love to hear of stories of laypeople who have made significant progress on the path. I've not yet been able to track down writings on the topic by a "householder" but I'm guessing they exist.

There is a website where letters written between a laywoman and a meditation teacher are available.She is of Sri Lankan origin and attained Anagami level . You can access the letters in the blog.

http://comemeditate.webs.com/

Very inspiring stuff.

with metta

Indeed - thanks for the link!

[Ananda26]

Hopefully the subject says it all. There is a myth of 10,000 hours required to master something. That is about 55 years at 30mins a day...

It would be great to hear from someone who has practised for a long time with around 30 minutes a day of meditation.

Here is a link to Long Discourse #22, the Great Discourse on the Foundations of MIndfulness. Buddha told the monks how if they practice they may expect final knowledge or if there is a trace of clinging left, the state of a Non-Returner.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[MarkNZed]

I was interested in hearing of advanced practitioners who do not make their living from teaching. I came across one example Daniel Ingram http://integrateddaniel.info/page-example/ who is a practising physician. He has some powerful criticisms of today's Buddhism.

He suggests that a retreat of over 5 days early on is a good idea. He also makes it clear that rapid progress will require investing much more than 30mins a day. But he also suggests short sessions can be very productive if that is all we have.