Bunch of keys?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Mkoll
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by Mkoll » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:40 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Goofaholix wrote: However I think when he says "Truth is God" it's a bit like the phrase "Cash is King", nobody will expect to see a pile of money on the throne, it's understood to mean that cash is of utmost importance the same way that Truth is of utmost importance to Goenka.
He might well mean it in that way, but I don't think many theists would understand it in that way, so it's potentially rather confusing.
I agree. Perhaps his Indian background has something to do with it. Their concept(s) of God seems more fluid than the singular Abrahamic God.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

daverupa
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by daverupa » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:44 am

Mkoll wrote:Indian background... Their concept(s) of God seems more fluid than the singular Abrahamic God.
We can say, according to the Dhamma, that these sorts of gods are only samsaric fairies, and of little importance.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by lyndon taylor » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:49 am

So you would equate the Dhamma with a samsaric fairie?? who's being ridiculous now??
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

daverupa
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by daverupa » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:52 am

Pay attention to what was actually said. The gods are just samsaric beings, impermanent, etc. They don't really matter.

The Dhamma is not a god, lyndon.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by lyndon taylor » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:13 am

Well Goenka disagree's with you, and I surely would have to also.....
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

barcsimalsi
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by barcsimalsi » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:03 pm

daverupa wrote:
Mkoll wrote:Indian background... Their concept(s) of God seems more fluid than the singular Abrahamic God.
We can say, according to the Dhamma, that these sorts of gods are only samsaric fairies, and of little importance.
I think Mkoll made a good point about the fluidity.
In Hinduism, Brahman (ब्रह्मन् brahman) is "the unchanging reality amidst and beyond the world",[2] which "cannot be exactly defined".[3] It has been described in Sanskrit as Sat-cit-ānanda (being-consciousness-bliss)[4] and as the highest reality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
Looks like their god can be defined as almost anything;
Brahman the absolute God

thepea
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by thepea » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:00 pm

Goofaholix wrote: I found this except here http://www.vridhamma.org/Question-and-Answers
Thank-you for linking this.
Goofaholix wrote: He is specifically saying “Truth is God”, in other words he takes Truth as his God instead of any of the God(s) of religion and he’s encouraging people who like to use the God word to have the same view about it’s meaning.
I agree.
Goofaholix wrote: So if he takes God as being a metaphor for Truth the question then becomes does he take Truth as a synonym of Nibbana? Looking at the above I don’t think he does, he is saying Truth is synonym of Dhamma, which of course what you’d expect because they are, if not a direct translation.
What is the ultimate truth of Dhamma?
Goofaholix wrote: In Buddhism realising truth is the path to Nibbana, and you can see several quotes in the above page say much the same, realising Truth/God is the means to Nibbana which is the end. So I think saying God and Nibbana are the same is a bit like saying travelling and arriving are the same, it sounds like new age bunk and not something Goenka ever said.
Realising truth is the path to Nibbana. Mr. Goenka often states we are to move from the gross reality to the subtlest reality, or moving from apparent reality to ultimate reality, or moving from apparent truth to ultimate truth, this ultimate truth is what I believe he is referring to as Nibbana. It seems logical to suggest Mr. Goenka equates Nibbana as the ultimate truth or ultimate God.

As I noted earlier Mr. Goenka in his bunch of keys sermon seems to differentiate between Deities(plural) and God(singular) as he does not refer to this as opening the god-plane within.

thepea
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by thepea » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:07 pm

TheNoBSBuddhist wrote: Otherwise, this is troll behaviour, and you are merely arguing for the stimulation of having people engage with you for fatuous purposes.
This is quite simply BS.

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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by thepea » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:13 pm

tiltbillings wrote: My choice would be not to use it, but Goenka-ji choice, it seems, has been to try to defuse the term by appropriating it.
I do not share this opinion.

thepea
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by thepea » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:19 pm

Goofaholix wrote:I think you're right, listening to his discourses it's obvious he's putting a lot of effort in trying to communicate with theists of all different persuasions using concepts they understand, while mocking/debunking some of their habits, and pointing them to the need for them to realise the truth with their own effort.
Do you feel Mr. Goenka is mocking people, seems a strong word?

thepea
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by thepea » Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:27 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Well Goenka disagree's with you, and I surely would have to also.....
I do not feel Mr. Goenka would disagree with daverupa, he does not seem to use God in the plural as one would describe the devas. The highest Dhamma is not a God, the highest Dhamma is God.

daverupa
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by daverupa » Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:24 pm

thepea wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Well Goenka disagree's with you, and I surely would have to also.....
I do not feel Mr. Goenka would disagree with daverupa, he does not seem to use God in the plural as one would describe the devas.
Indeed; his use of 'God' was to redefine the word to mean Truth, and in this we can see that the Dhamma as depicted in the four ennobling truths is the reference, not a Deity.
The highest Dhamma is not a God, the highest Dhamma is God.
There isn't a highest Dhamma other than the BuddhaDhamma and this is not God in any way at all; using the term 'God' is to use a Western term, and with some confusion and trouble it appears. Probably it's best not to use it, since it's causing this trouble.

The Dhamma is not a being or a deity or anything like that at all.

---
barcsimalsi wrote:Looks like their god can be defined as almost anything
It's simply not the case that deities matter in any Dhammic way, though they might matter in a traditional way or a cultural way or some such. But, despite the trenchant phrasing, 'samsaric fairy' encapsulates their practical importance on the Path.

Furthermore, there's no God in any monotheistic sense, and this can be simply asserted as a clear doctrinal position, Goenka's creative use of terms notwithstanding. Disagreements on this point that claim there is a God/Brahman/Atta/Atman/Prajapati/Underlying-Mystic-Principle-Being-Presence-of-any-kind are wholly wrongheaded and off-base, in terms of the Dhamma.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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tiltbillings
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:10 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Well Goenka disagree's with you, and I surely would have to also.....
Let us not forget Goenka-ji's very own words that open the link I provided above, "human beings created god in their own image."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:17 pm

thepea wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: My choice would be not to use it, but Goenka-ji choice, it seems, has been to try to defuse the term by appropriating it.
I do not share this opinion.
You do not have to share my opinion, but at least my opinion, unlike yours, is grounded in what Goenka-ji has to say in the context of the Buddha's teachings about the idea of god. What we have gotten from you is rather wooly, and it has been repeatedly shown to be wrong, but you persist.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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TheNoBSBuddhist
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Re: Bunch of keys?

Post by TheNoBSBuddhist » Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:20 pm

thepea wrote:
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote: Otherwise, this is troll behaviour, and you are merely arguing for the stimulation of having people engage with you for fatuous purposes.
This is quite simply BS.
The internet definition of Trolling includes these indicators:
  • 1: All your carefully picked arguments can easily be ignored.
    2: Anything you say can and will be used against you.
    3: Anything you say can be turned into something else
I hate to say it, but you basically fulfil all of the above....

I hereby leave this discussion to those far more capable of arguing the point with you, although to be honest, precisely what your point is, is anyone's guess...! :tongue:

:jumping:
:namaste:

You will not be punished FOR your 'emotions'; you will be punished BY your 'emotions'.



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‘Absit invidia verbo’ - may ill-will be absent from the word. And mindful of that, if I don't respond, this may be why....

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