Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

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Paribbajaka
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Paribbajaka »

Cittasanto wrote: The only people worth feeling sorry for, are those who feel entitled to something!
That's funny, because I feel sorry for people who don't see that everyone is entitled to equal treatment.

The Buddha ordained Bhikkhunis. The instructions he left for ordaining more can no longer be used, and I personally feel this is being used as an excuse to perpetuate sexism inherited from the Southeast Asian host cultures in to Theravada. This is not an "entitlement" issue, it's a human rights and self-determination issue.
May all beings be happy!
culaavuso
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by culaavuso »

Paribbajaka wrote:The instructions he left for ordaining more can no longer be used
[url=http://awakeningtruth.org/images/pdf/ven-analayo/LegalitywithTranslations.pdf]The Legality of Bhikkhunī Ordination[/url] by Ven. Bhikkhu Anālayo wrote: From this it follows that the higher ordination carried out at Bodhgayā fulfils the legal requirements of the Theravāda Vinaya.
...
The combination of higher ordinations adopted for the 1998 Bodhgayā procedure is legally correct. The order of bhikkhunīs has been revived. It stands on firm legal foundations and has a right to claim recognition as a Theravāda order of bhikkhunīs.
About Santi Forest Monastery wrote: Santi Forest Monastery is a Buddhist Nuns’ Monastery with facilities for people to visit, study and practice the teachings of the Buddha.
...
Since 2005, the Sangha of Santi has performed ordinations
...
Vinaya contains the famous pāṭimokkha list of rules, 227 for bhikkhus, 311 for bhikkhunis in the Pali version. These rules structure important aspects of monastic life, such as celibacy, wearing robes, not using money, use of food, and so on. Such rules are strictly emphasized in the Forest Tradition, and monastics at Santi are expected to follow these rules.
chownah
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by chownah »

Does the paper have anything new or different to say? If there is something new then would someone bring an excerpt showing it......if there is nothing new then don't bother.
chownah
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Ceisiwr »

Why not just ordain women again

I don't think the world will end, or the Dhamma will be lost, if they just allow male monks to ordain the first few nuns.


It comes accross as clinging to rites and rituals to me


No doubt that if the nuns lineage had died out when Buddha was alive, he would just simply restart it by male ordination of female nuns.


I've never had an answer as to why it would be so damaging and catastrophic to just ordain women again?
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Mr Man
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Mr Man »

clw_uk wrote:Why not just ordain women again
Isn't this happening already.
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Paribbajaka
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Paribbajaka »

Mr Man wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Why not just ordain women again
Isn't this happening already.
The Bhikkhunis being ordained are not recognized by several branches of the Theravada tree. If this were not the case, there wouldn't be a discussion.
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robertk
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by robertk »

clw_uk wrote:Why not just ordain women again

I don't think the world will end, or the Dhamma will be lost, if they just allow male monks to ordain the first few nuns.


It comes accross as clinging to rites and rituals to me


No doubt that if the nuns lineage had died out when Buddha was alive, he would just simply restart it by male ordination of female nuns.


I've never had an answer as to why it would be so damaging and catastrophic to just ordain women again?
In the history of the sasana, since the Buddha died, there has not been a single case of even the smallest rule in the Vinaya being changed or deleted by the sangha.
How could they now decide to change something as important as an ordination rule that is ranked as GARUDHAMMa and listed in both sutta and vinaya.
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Mr Man
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Mr Man »

Paribbajaka wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Why not just ordain women again
Isn't this happening already.
The Bhikkhunis being ordained are not recognized by several branches of the Theravada tree. If this were not the case, there wouldn't be a discussion.
So should they be compelled to recognize these Bhikkhunis as Theravada Bhikkhunis?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Ceisiwr »

robertk wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Why not just ordain women again

I don't think the world will end, or the Dhamma will be lost, if they just allow male monks to ordain the first few nuns.


It comes accross as clinging to rites and rituals to me


No doubt that if the nuns lineage had died out when Buddha was alive, he would just simply restart it by male ordination of female nuns.


I've never had an answer as to why it would be so damaging and catastrophic to just ordain women again?
In the history of the sasana, since the Buddha died, there has not been a single case of even the smallest rule in the Vinaya being changed or deleted by the sangha.
How could they now decide to change something as important as an ordination rule that is ranked as GARUDHAMMa and listed in both sutta and vinaya.


Didnt it happen with the first schism?


Besides I'm not arguing to change the rules for monks and nuns, something which could actually damage the sangha, but only to overlook this one aspect.


As I asked, what is this terrible outcome that some people have in their minds if nuns are just ordained. This should be such a non-issue, with common sense prevailing.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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robertk
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by robertk »

The first schism, according to theravada, was indeed about some monks wanting to change the rules.
The theravda monks refused and so you had the other monks heading out on their own path.
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Mr Man
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Mr Man »

clw_uk wrote:

As I asked, what is this terrible outcome that some people have in their minds if nuns are just ordained.
Nuns are ordaining.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man wrote:
clw_uk wrote:

As I asked, what is this terrible outcome that some people have in their minds if nuns are just ordained.
Nuns are ordaining.

Exactly! And the world hasnt ended or the Dhamma become corrupted.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Paribbajaka
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Paribbajaka »

Mr Man wrote: So should they be compelled to recognize these Bhikkhunis as Theravada Bhikkhunis?
In a word, yes.
May all beings be happy!
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Paribbajaka
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Paribbajaka »

robertk wrote: In the history of the sasana, since the Buddha died, there has not been a single case of even the smallest rule in the Vinaya being changed or deleted by the sangha.
How could they now decide to change something as important as an ordination rule that is ranked as GARUDHAMMa and listed in both sutta and vinaya.
As had been covered in this thread and elsewhere, the rules are in no way universally abided by. So we have a situation where offenses against the vinaya are accepted and allowed, and then the vinaya is held up to defend a stance against renewing bhikkuni ordination. Why is there no uproar to bhikkhus using money or getting involved in politics? Why is there no debate over the fact that the Sri Lankan caste system is present in their monastic orders? How about Bhikkhus fortune telling?
May all beings be happy!
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Mr Man
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Re: Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

Post by Mr Man »

Paribbajaka wrote:
Mr Man wrote: So should they be compelled to recognize these Bhikkhunis as Theravada Bhikkhunis?
In a word, yes.
What punishment would you suggest for dissenters?
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