Petition about ajahn brahm's paper that was banned

[Paribbajaka]

The fact that the rules are not followed by most is not a valid reason for changing them. The rules have not been bent — most are not able to follow them fully, but the rules haven't been changed since the time of the Buddha.

So why don't we recognize that the requirements for Bhikkhuni ordination can no longer be followed? My point is it doesn't seem right to make exceptions in other areas and then deny women ordination by not making an exception. Further, if we admit that most don't follow a rule, why have it at all?

Although mobile phones and computers were not around in the Buddha's time, the Buddha laid down procedures whereby one can compare what was not specified as allowable with what was specified.

In the Buddha's time the monks would have sent a message by letter or by a messenger, now we can send an email or make a phone call¹ — it's much quicker. In ancient times, they carved the texts on stone, or engraved them on palm leaves — now we can write them on computers. It is much more convenient for everyone.

¹ I don't use a mobile, but I don't see how it's any different to using one fixed on a wall or sitting on a desk.

I am not discussing the use of a phone for communication, but as so many people today do as a distraction. I am talking about monks playing games on phones or using them to update facebook pages (sometimes, I'll admit, while seated for chanting).

If Bhikkuni ordination was fully revived, what negatives would come of it? And what positives? From my limited perspective, I see many positives (more gender equality, more Dhamma teachers, more ordained sangha for rituals and ceremonies) but can think of few negatives beyond a few bruised egos.

[Sokehi]

If Bhikkuni ordination was fully revived, what negatives would come of it? And what positives? From my limited perspective, I see many positives (more gender equality, more Dhamma teachers, more ordained sangha for rituals and ceremonies) but can think of few negatives beyond a few bruised egos.

plus women would have spiritual advisors of their own gender within the monastic sangha. It might be easier to talk about more private matters during an interview with a bhikkhuni than say to a celibate male monastic.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

women would have spiritual advisors of their own gender within the monastic sangha. It might be easier to talk about more private matters during an interview with a bhikkhuni than say to a celibate male monastic.

They already have that. Nuns do not need to be bhikkhunis to give teachings and spiritual advice.

I just heard about Sayagyi Daw Sobhanā who teaches Vipassanā in Paris.

Sayagi Daw Sobhana was born on December 20th 1946 in Cambodia. She was the 17th and last child of a pious Buddhist family from Phnom Penh.

Since her young age, she has been educated with Buddhist spiritual values: the tradition of generosity & sharing (dāna) was commonly practiced in her home, with her parents offering regularly food to Buddhist monks, relatives and friends. It was from her parents that the young girl learned the meaning of giving to others as well as the importance of respecting elders.

She was only 10 year old when her mother died from disease. It is at that time that she came to listen to her first sermons delivered by the monks on sickness, old age and death. When she was 19, it was her father’s turn to pass away. She remembered one of the Buddha’s teaching he taught her: ”attā hi attano nātho” (one indeed is one’s own refuge). This will prove to be the principal guideline of her whole life up to now. Thus, very soon and quickly, she encountered the reality of Dhamma through the hardships of life.

After her studies, wishing to contribute to relieve physical suffering through medicine, she worked in a French pharmaceutical laboratory. But she immediately realized that something important was missing to alleviate mental suffering.

In the 70’s as war was threatening the security of the country, she decided to leave for France so to acquire the knowledge necessary to uplift her quality of life. Afterwards, she undertook trainings in beauty care, massages, naturopathic medicine, acupuncture, bio-energy, osteopathy and psychology, and worked as a therapist.

Family life was unfolding harmoniously and happily until the very day when her French husband suddenly died from a heart attack in 1988, leaving behind a young orphan boy aged 7 years. She was 42 years old, when separation through death inflicted her great suffering. The illusions of the saṁsāra faded away and she felt a strong urge to search for the Truth and the cessation suffering.

She then practiced meditation according to the Goenka method for 7 years. Thereafter, she met Venerable Sāsana and the late Sayadaw U Vijaya (Sakyamuni center) and practiced Vipassanā meditation in the tradition of the late Venerable Mahāsi Sayadaw in Burma. Starting from 1998, she made several spiritual travels to the land of the Dhamma, Burma (in Sayadaw U Paṇḍita & Sayadaw U Janaka’s centers) and to Malaysia to undertake meditation.

In 2001, she was ordained as a nun with Sayadaw U Paṇḍita as her preceptor, and had a one-year Vipassanā retreat at Panḍitārāma Meditation Center under the guidance of different meditation teachers. At that time, she encountered Sayadaw U Thuzana, a very skilful teacher, endowed with much patience, mettā-karuṇā, gentleness and understanding. These very qualities of mind/heart tremendously helped Sayagyi’s own spiritual path. Thus, she could develop the pure Dhamma through the years up to nowadays. Sayadaw U Thuzana, having confidence in her qualities (maturity, mettā-karuṇā, experiences in the practice, communication skills…) encouraged her to share the Dhamma in France.

[Sokehi]

They already have that. Nuns do not need to be bhikkhunis to give teachings and spiritual advice.

With all due respect bhante, but in the same way man do not need to become bhikkhus. If that is the case and everything is good enough if we are somewhat-spiritualized why not get rid of the monastic sangha altogether? We need fully ordained monastics both male and female otherwise the stain of "sexist theravada" will stay forever in the west and to the disadvantage of many interested in the sasana.

[Paribbajaka]

They already have that. Nuns do not need to be bhikkhunis to give teachings and spiritual advice.

With all due respect bhante, but in the same way man do not need to become bhikkhus. If that is the case and everything is good enough if we are somewhat-spiritualized why not get rid of the monastic sangha altogether? We need fully ordained monastics both male and female otherwise the stain of "sexist theravada" will stay forever in the west and to the disadvantage of many interested in the sasana.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Those who are interested in gaining liberation from samsāra will practice with able meditation teachers, without even considering whether they are monks, nuns, or lay people. My first teacher was John Coleman, who worked for the CIA in Burma, and later became a meditation teacher in the U Ba Khin tradition. Another of my early teachers was Mrs Ruth Denissen who introduced me to the practice of walking meditation.

As you know, many, if not most ordained bhikkhus are spending their time for rituals and ceremonies, while only a minority are actually practising or teaching meditation. What is so special about 227 precepts or 311 precepts? What matters is spiritual development. Goenka, Thich Hnat Hanh, Jack Kornfield, Christopher Titmus, Ajahn Sundarā, Ajahn Candasiri, Daw Ariyañāni, and many others are spreading the Dhamma quite well without being fully ordained.

If you want to follow the spiritual path as a bhikkhuni, then do it, don't just talk about it, and don't get side-tracked into political issues — it is not the Noble Eightfold Path.

[cooran]

Well said, Bhante! Thank you.

With metta and respect,
Chris

[alan]

Ayya Khema.

[DNS]

If you want to follow the spiritual path as a bhikkhuni, then do it, don't just talk about it, and don't get side-tracked into political issues — it is not the Noble Eightfold Path.

True, but neither is it practicing the Noble Eightfold Path by pursuing political efforts to stop women from becoming bhikkhunis (not saying you are doing that, just talking in general about some monks and lay people who try to stop women from full ordinations).

[Cittasanto]

Why exactly was he stopped giving his address?

Edit -
After reading this thread it is strange that some consider the original incarnation of the siladhara - which to my knowledge were Samaneri under a different name - as not part of the Original Buddhist Tradition. They follow both the Dhamma and vinaya set up by the Buddha, and even if they don't follow all those of the Bhikkhuni, should Sikkhamana and Samaneri also not be considered part of the tradition? But to that matter, what about the other traditions which have different rules for mendicants, or those who follow the eight lifelong precepts which is the sila aspect of the threefold training of the eightfold path and found nowhere in the canon as precepts in and of themselves.

[DNS]

Sikkhamānā and samaneri are part of the Buddhist tradition. So are fully ordained bhikkhus and fully ordained bhikkhunis. It is up to each person to decide how they want to practice, be it as a lay man, lay woman, sikkhamānā, samaneri, bhikkhu or bhikkhuni.

[Sokehi]

I have to admit that my knowledge about all aspects is truly not sufficient for a final elaborate "view" that is absolutely pure so to speak. This is not meant to sound sarcastic - I really know I am of little insight in all the vinaya aspects and cultural aspects and preoccupations. But still I hold the belief that these discussions are worldly and conditioned matters... so far so good. But if they prevent people of a certain gender from following their aspirations it can't be righteous or pure.

I wonder sometimes - being male myself - what would other males here think about it if the situation would be otherwise? The bhikkhus lineage died out, only bhikkhunis around... I just use this thought to reflect on the situation of dedicated upasikas wanting to ordain. Men are very fortunate, having the possibility to ordain within their own nation, not to have to travel far. Everything is pleasantly available. Sometimes I have the feeling that compassion towards the situation of the female practitioners is very low here I have to admit. They are accused to follow political issues - just by having a spiritual longing like other males here have too, some having had the good fortune to ordain themselves - some still having the chance to do so in the future.

Compassion should not stop or begin at following views. At least we should feel sorry for the womens situations, but this compassion is expressed here very rarely if at all.

Please forgive me for sounding disrespectful sometimes, I'm still learning and I know I still have to do much more in the right speech department

[Cittasanto]

I have to admit that my knowledge about all aspects is truly not sufficient for a final elaborate "view" that is absolutely pure so to speak. This is not meant to sound sarcastic - I really know I am of little insight in all the vinaya aspects and cultural aspects and preoccupations. But still I hold the belief that these discussions are worldly and conditioned matters... so far so good. But if they prevent people of a certain gender from following their aspirations it can't be righteous or pure.

I wonder sometimes - being male myself - what would other males here think about it if the situation would be otherwise? The bhikkhus lineage died out, only bhikkhunis around... I just use this thought to reflect on the situation of dedicated upasikas wanting to ordain. Men are very fortunate, having the possibility to ordain within their own nation, not to have to travel far. Everything is pleasantly available. Sometimes I have the feeling that compassion towards the situation of the female practitioners is very low here I have to admit. They are accused to follow political issues - just by having a spiritual longing like other males here have too, some having had the good fortune to ordain themselves - some still having the chance to do so in the future.

Compassion should not stop or begin at following views. At least we should feel sorry for the womens situations, but this compassion is expressed here very rarely if at all.

Please forgive me for sounding disrespectful sometimes, I'm still learning and I know I still have to do much more in the right speech department

I wonder sometimes the same! and then I think of the likes of those who seek to open avenues and look for solutions. Would I want to be a controversy or an example?

The only people worth feeling sorry for, are those who feel entitled to something!

[Sokehi]

I have to admit that my knowledge about all aspects is truly not sufficient for a final elaborate "view" that is absolutely pure so to speak. This is not meant to sound sarcastic - I really know I am of little insight in all the vinaya aspects and cultural aspects and preoccupations. But still I hold the belief that these discussions are worldly and conditioned matters... so far so good. But if they prevent people of a certain gender from following their aspirations it can't be righteous or pure.

I wonder sometimes - being male myself - what would other males here think about it if the situation would be otherwise? The bhikkhus lineage died out, only bhikkhunis around... I just use this thought to reflect on the situation of dedicated upasikas wanting to ordain. Men are very fortunate, having the possibility to ordain within their own nation, not to have to travel far. Everything is pleasantly available. Sometimes I have the feeling that compassion towards the situation of the female practitioners is very low here I have to admit. They are accused to follow political issues - just by having a spiritual longing like other males here have too, some having had the good fortune to ordain themselves - some still having the chance to do so in the future.

Compassion should not stop or begin at following views. At least we should feel sorry for the womens situations, but this compassion is expressed here very rarely if at all.

Please forgive me for sounding disrespectful sometimes, I'm still learning and I know I still have to do much more in the right speech department

I wonder sometimes the same! and then I think of the likes of those who seek to open avenues and look for solutions. Would I want to be a controversy or an example?

Solutions will not be found if everyone remains quiet. With regards to this I'm not wondering at all. Even at the times of the Buddha the laity complained and adressed issues. That's in my eyes a duty.

[Cittasanto]

Solutions will not be found if everyone remains quiet. With regards to this I'm not wondering at all. Even at the times of the Buddha the laity complained and adressed issues. That's in my eyes a duty.

Hi,
I had added to what I had said but it is of no matter to what you replied to nothing was changed only added.

Who is remaining quiet? Why was Ajahn Brahm's address not given? Is it because of a supposed status quo or other reason?