Competition?

[No_Mind]

Some Buddhists want to attain Nibbana. Most do not. Most want to use Buddhism as a tool to live a balanced life. For the latter - being better at sports or going to gym or having a nice body or competitive video gaming should not be a problem (I like watching boxing and MMA also. I find no wrong in full contact sports. Neither do the Shaolin monks or Japanese martial artists who are also deeply involved with Zen practice).

FYI, the Buddha prohibited martial art training to bhikkhu, IIRC (hope someone could confirm or denying it)

I will be sure to let Shaolin monks know that what they are doing is prohibited by Buddha. Hope they accept snail mail.

About Japan, I did not say Zen practitioners practice Karate, I said Karate practitioners practice Zen.

Also to be noted OP is not a monk but a lay person

[tisa01]

Definitely desire, passion and pride which are frequently related to competition are harmful not only for Buddhists, but for all beings. Doesn't matter what shaolin monks do or don't do.

Although, for beginners like myself, I think things like kindness, harmlessness, meditation practice everyday are the priorities. Dropping activities that could be harmful in some level as a beginner lay follower doesn't make much sense, I think that makes sense If your are a monk or as lay you do it from understanding from constant practice.

Although, if you think that competition really drags you into unwholesome states like strong ill will and bad actions, then you could try change that with a new attitude or a different motivation, if nothing works it would be a good idea to drop it.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

I think the question is incorrect, anyway.

The OP isn't even indulging in real-life sports, or physical activity which would, to an extent keep him fit, agile, healthy and supple.

The OP is indulging in computer games, which means that in addition to dulling the mind and being a waste of his time, is also conducive to lethargy, indolence, and inactivity, which is unhealthy and non-productive.

The original question should, in my personal opinion, therefore read:

"Is a competitive sport played on a computer or other technological instrument harmful to the minds of those who practice buddhism? By the way, I mean strictly to sports, not like daily life!"

My answer is yes. And the fact that you even felt the need to ask the question, makes me suspect that you already know the answer, deep down.

get off the couch, switch the darned thing off and go for a good, long, brisk walk.

To where?

There, and back again! But MINDFULLY!!

[No_Mind]

The OP is indulging in computer games, which means that in addition to dulling the mind and being a waste of his time, is also conducive to lethargy, indolence, and inactivity, which is unhealthy and non-productive.

The original question should, in my personal opinion, therefore read:

"Is a competitive sport played on a computer or other technological instrument harmful to the minds of those who practice buddhism? By the way, I mean strictly to sports, not like daily life!"

My answer is yes. And the fact that you even felt the need to ask the question, makes me suspect that you already know the answer, deep down.

get off the couch, switch the darned thing off and go for a good, long, brisk walk.

To where?

There, and back again! But MINDFULLY!!

NoBSBuddhist are you asking him to switch it off because a walk is better for health than computer gaming? If so then I agree.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

Yes.
That and that such games do nothing to nourish, cultivate or assist anyone in the workings and finer points of Dhammic practice.

[Mkoll]

Victory begets enmity; the defeated dwell in pain. Happily the peaceful live, discarding both victory and defeat.

The very definition of competition involves striving against others:

com·pete (km-pt)
intr.v. com·pet·ed, com·pet·ing, com·petes
To strive against another or others to attain a goal, such as an advantage or a victory. See Synonyms at rival.

To my knowlege, the Buddha never asked his disciples to compare their attainments with each other or try to out-compete each other in who has more loving-kindness or something.

[TheNoBSBuddhist]

Metta arm-wrestling.....

[Ananda Thera]

When you are in competition, you are definitely not mindful. The experience can be roughly compared to that of a jhanic absorption; you get so captivated into the sport or game that the whole world seems to stop.

I thank that it is okay for Buddhists to engage in competition sports; many Buddhists in Thailand engage in Muay Thai competitions. However, any type of activities like these will hinder your progress to Nibbana; assuming that you are trying your best to achieve the jhanas or one of the four stages of sainthood in this very life. It is said that living a simple and renounced life full of virtues is the foundation to any kind of achievement. This is why monks are given their monastic rules or Patimokkha. Their renunciation from worldly pleasures allow them to speed up their progress. It is said that if you have great attachments to worldly pleasures like tasty foods, money, or in this case, competitions, it is hard to even achieve the first jhana; which is born from withdrawal and seclusion.

So if you are a beginner who is trying to apply Buddhist practices into everyday life to help you gain a mental well being, then it is okay to participate in competitions. But if you are trying to achieve any attainments in this very life, then I suggest you live a simple, humble, and renounced life.

But it all depends on you. I hope this helps.

With Metta

[Mkoll]

Ananda.

BTW, are you a bhikkhu?

[Nibbida]

I agree with MKoll and Ananda Thera. Competition, even with the best of intentions reinforces the illusory separate sense of self.

There is no need for comparing, no matter whether we are in fact superior, equal or inferior. We accumulate more akusala whenever we make ourselves important in comparing ourselves with others, no matter under what aspect.
--Nina Van Gorkom, Cetasikas
http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas19.html

I suppose it would be theoretically possible for a bunch of arahats to play a soccer game and not create a sense of self out of who scored more or less, but for the rest of us, it's practically inevitable that the mind will make these comparisons whether we knowingly try to or not.

Perhaps an interesting exercise would be to watch a sporting match in which you prefer one team over another, and while watching it primarily focus on the thoughts and/or feelings that arise as the game unfolds. It could be a unique opportunity to watch the sense of flaring up, arising and passing.

[No_Mind]

Victory begets enmity; the defeated dwell in pain. Happily the peaceful live, discarding both victory and defeat.

The very definition of competition involves striving against others

I agree with MKoll and Ananda Thera. Competition, even with the best of intentions reinforces the illusory separate sense of self.

There is no need for comparing, no matter whether we are in fact superior, equal or inferior. We accumulate more akusala whenever we make ourselves important in comparing ourselves with others, no matter under what aspect.
--Nina Van Gorkom, Cetasikas
http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas19.html

I am sure OP does not want to be an arahant; if he was he would not be gaming. I am sure OP does not even want to imitate life of a monk while in lay life. The stand I and NoBSBuddhist took is simple and straight forward.

I said it is okay to compete but not to take the competition home, NoBS said better to walk than game (I guess from this comment NoBS has no objection to OP becoming England opening batsman in Test cricket)

Is this not taking it too far? If life takes us down a path where we pick up saffron robes and a alms bowl, well and good; if not we shall live lay life. lay life will always involve a degree of competition. Point is not to take the competition to the point where it affects peace of mind. What is a lay Buddhist supposed to do - fail appraisal tests?

Internet is replete with stories of people who chuck career and want to become a doctor at 35 or 40. How can they do that if they are not competitive. Read this story of a 48 year old who wants to become a doctor. Here is a 80 year old competitive bodybuilder

Please do not share such views. I request it as a beginner. There is a constant feeling of insufficiency and depression brought about by the word arahant being thrown about like candy. An arahant has attained liberation. There is maybe one every hundred years. That is about 775 times rarer than winning Nobel Prize (775 Nobel Laureates in last 100 years) !! Does the word Nobel Laureate in Chemistry get thrown around in a high school chemistry lab daily.

Most cannot become arahants. All that such talk does is depress people that they are unable to keep up with what is demanded.

This thread is the reason I want to give up Buddhism - the imposition of impossible to live up to standards. No brickbats please - I am not giving it up.

[MarkNZed]

I would have thought that any activity can be the subject of mindfulness and that can be beneficial. The layperson seems to be almost better off in this regard - having many opportunities to confront the most difficult emotions. Somebody who can equanimously live within everyday society would seem to be achieving something far more difficult than someone equanimously living in a sheltered monastery.

A game would seem an even more opportune environment for experiencing strong emotions and being mindful of the process. The risk of getting a low score in a game is insignificant compared to the risk of getting fired but it can be the same mechanisms that lead to both results. Maybe the average monk would get quite a shock of how much work they have left to do after a few rounds of Halo 2

Trying to perform to the best of one's ability does not have to done with aversion, greed or stupidity. We are typically trying to meditate to the best of our ability. Tackling someone in rugby can be done with an intention to injure or with the intention to make a good tackle - one approach is skillful. Those who reach a high level of ability in sport often explain how the challenge is within themselves more than with the opponent - it demands great mental skill.

Losing can cause anger which is unskillful but it can also be a motivation to improve. I've seen plenty of talented sports people lose graciously - often complimenting the opponent after the game. They still compete to the best of their ability.

Avoiding situations like competitive sports certainly means one does not have to deal with the emotions that can cause. The neural pathways are still there. To change that potential behavior it would seem necessary to accept and work with it. It might be wiser to exercise in a game than in a family argument!

Social sport seems a great opportunity to be mindful of strong emotions in a friendly environment. If one can't play a game without loosing control how would one expect to deal with the extremes of everyday life...

[No_Mind]

If one can't play a game without loosing control how would one expect to deal with the extremes of everyday life...

Thank you for raising this point. I was afraid to raise it on my own. I do exactly as you say - use competition as a test of my mindfulness and detachment.

To learn to be like

The blue mountain is the father of the white cloud. The white cloud is the son of the blue mountain. All day long they depend on each other, without becoming dependent on each other. The white cloud is always the white cloud. The blue mountain is always the blue mountain Tozan, translated by Shunryu Suzuki (Zen Mind, Beginners mind.)

After I became a Buddhist, I welcome competition not run away from it because I keep the competition at its place and me at my place.

[Mkoll]

Please do not share such views. I request it as a beginner. There is a constant feeling of insufficiency and depression brought about by the word arahant being thrown about like candy. An arahant has attained liberation. There is maybe one every hundred years. That is about 775 times rarer than winning Nobel Prize (775 Nobel Laureates in last 100 years) !! Does the word Nobel Laureate in Chemistry get thrown around in a high school chemistry lab daily.

Most cannot become arahants. All that such talk does is depress people that they are unable to keep up with what is demanded.

This thread is the reason I want to give up Buddhism - the imposition of impossible to live up to standards. No brickbats please - I am not giving it up.

Sorry mate, but I'm going to share my views. We're all free to do that here as long as we follow the Terms of Service. I'm sorry if my views are depressing but I'm not going to beat around the bush or prevaricate so I can pander to people's sensibilities. I have confidence that people are free to think what they want about any views presented here on this forum; none are being imposed upon anyone.

[No_Mind]

Sorry mate, but I'm going to share my views. We're all free to do that here as long as we follow the Terms of Service. I'm sorry if my views are depressing but I'm not going to beat around the bush or prevaricate so I can pander to people's sensibilities. I have confidence that people are free to think what they want about any views presented here on this forum; none are being imposed upon anyone.

Sure you are free to do as you wish. No one said otherwise. If you mistake my request as censorship, you are the person imposing restraints on yourself not me. I cannot bear the burden of your misinterpretation.