Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..."

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Sea Turtle
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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by Sea Turtle » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:25 pm

Mkoll wrote:What is Ven. Jayasaro's position? Is it different from Ven. Brahm's?
Yes, Ven. Jayasaro offers a different perspective in the aforementioned documentary. His approach is clearly more moderate and cautious...and he mentions that "pushing the bhikkhuni option" could inadvertently strengthen the more conservative elements of the Theravada sanghas.

[Incidentally, I have seen the film "The Buddha's Forgotten Nuns" available free of charge online, and I have also seen it available for "rental" online. So now I am concerned that perhaps viewing the film for free is in violation of copyright? If anyone has information on that or discovers that to be the case, I will remove the link from my previous post.]

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Mr Man
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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by Mr Man » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:40 pm

waterchan wrote:
1) A Theravada nun is a Theravada nun. I don't believe the Vinaya rules for ordination state different rules for different traditions.

2) Why shouldn't they want that, as long as it's an ordination given in accordance with the Vinaya?
Hi waterchan


1) I think the view is that the Bhikkuni at Santi are not acknowledged as Theravada Bhikkuni. There is not wide acceptance within the larger Theravada community.

2) I don't know why they wouldn't want that. Maybe they do want it. Have you spoken to any of them about it?

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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by culaavuso » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:45 pm

Sea Turtle wrote:Incidentally, I have seen the film "The Buddha's Forgotten Nuns" available free of charge online, and I have also seen it available for "rental" online. So now I am concerned that perhaps viewing the film for free is in violation of copyright?
It looks like the video available on Culture Unplugged is part of an online film festival. Culture Unplugged claims that the film was submitted to the festival by Katrina Lucas, who is listed as the film's producer on the film makers page of the documentary's website.

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Sea Turtle
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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by Sea Turtle » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:09 am

Thank you for checking on that, culaavuso.

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pilgrim
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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by pilgrim » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:28 am

Mr Man wrote:
1)But they wouldn't be of the same tradition.

2)Do the nuns at Amaravati want that?
A number of senior Siladharas such as Ayya Thanasanti, Medhanandi, Anandabodhi, Santacitta, etc have left Amaravati over the last few years and reordained all over again as bhikkhunis in the USA.

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Sea Turtle
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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by Sea Turtle » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:53 am

"Nuns Leave; and Explain Why"

http://awakeningtruth.org/teaching/writ ... of-support

Came across this a few months back. It features the letters of some nuns describing the circumstances under which they decided to leave the communities associated with Amaravati and Chithurst (circa 2010).

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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:22 am

Sea Turtle wrote:
Mkoll wrote:What is Ven. Jayasaro's position? Is it different from Ven. Brahm's?
Yes, Ven. Jayasaro offers a different perspective in the aforementioned documentary. His approach is clearly more moderate and cautious...and he mentions that "pushing the bhikkhuni option" could inadvertently strengthen the more conservative elements of the Theravada sanghas.
I've heard that opinion expressed by other senior Ajahn Chah students --- that ordaining Bhikkhunis might actually delay eventual acceptance.

Of course, I have no idea whether that is the case or not, not being privy to the machinations of the Theravada hierarchy. However, I think it is worth pointing out that some of the opposition to the ordinations was based on an assessment of the strategy that was most likely to succeed, not out of conservatism.

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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by Sokehi » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:14 am

"It is instructive to observe however that nuns in modern Theravada countries, who are not fully ordained as “bhikkhunis,” and therefore fall outside of these original rules, quite commonly fall precisely into the willing role of serving monks, exactly as the Buddha clearly feared."

"Recall that the Garudhammas are the eight rules that symbolically put the nuns under the thumb of the monks, and that they were intended to remedy a threat to the lifespan of the Dharma which arose in the establishing the nuns’ Sangha. I will argue here that the threat is that the nuns’ sangha would have fit poorly into the social norms of patriarchal India, that it would have been difficult for the nuns to receive the lay support already enjoyed by the monks and that the reputation of the Sangha as a whole would have declined. The remedy was to present the appearance of conformity to social norms. The real intention was to promote, not denigrate, the interests of women, all the while preserving the Dharma."

"For instance, an admonishing monk cannot show up among the nuns in the late hours, and must have certain qualifications, described as follows:
A monk who is entrusted to preside over their welfare should conform to perfect standards of moral virtue. He should also possess a thorough knowledge of the teaching of the Master and know well the complete code of the Patimokkha covering both the Bhikkhus and the Bhikkhunis. He should be of pleasant disposition, mature in years and acceptable to the Bhikkhunis, and above all, should in no way have been involved in a serious offense with a Bhikkhuni. – Vin.IV.51
Not just any monk could show up to hold forth in front of the nuns."

https://bhikkhucintita.wordpress.com/ho ... a-1272012/
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by Dan74 » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:06 am

pilgrim wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
1)But they wouldn't be of the same tradition.

2)Do the nuns at Amaravati want that?
A number of senior Siladharas such as Ayya Thanasanti, Medhanandi, Anandabodhi, Santacitta, etc have left Amaravati over the last few years and reordained all over again as bhikkhunis in the USA.
I thought Ajahn Thanasanti left Amaravati many years ago. She lived in Australia for a little while and gave a talk at the University where I was studying, one of the best talks I've heard. A bright sparkly presence and she laughed very easily! I drove her back afterwards (with a woman present) - a very impressive nun, I thought at the time.
_/|\_

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Mr Man
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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by Mr Man » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:24 am

Dan74 wrote:
pilgrim wrote: A number of senior Siladharas such as Ayya Thanasanti, Medhanandi, Anandabodhi, Santacitta, etc have left Amaravati over the last few years and reordained all over again as bhikkhunis in the USA.
I thought Ajahn Thanasanti left Amaravati many years ago. She lived in Australia for a little while and gave a talk at the University where I was studying, one of the best talks I've heard. A bright sparkly presence and she laughed very easily! I drove her back afterwards (with a woman present) - a very impressive nun, I thought at the time.
I think the same is true of Ayyā Medhānandī. Ayya Anandabodhi and Santacitta originally moved to the US to set up a Siladara monastery.

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Aloka
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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by Aloka » Fri Jun 06, 2014 3:22 am

I think its worth mentioning that sadly it hasn't been possible for nuns to get full ordination within Tibetan Buddhism either:

http://www.thubtenchodron.org/BuddhistN ... ility.html

http://awakeningbuddhistwomen.blogspot.co.uk/


.

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pilgrim
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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by pilgrim » Fri Jun 06, 2014 4:56 am

Has a poll been done to gauge the acceptance of bhikkhunis among members of DW? and if not, can that be done ?

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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by Mkoll » Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:11 am

pilgrim wrote:Has a poll been done to gauge the acceptance of bhikkhunis among members of DW? and if not, can that be done ?
I imagine the majority would be in favor of it. Many of us might appreciate the cautious approach advocated by Ven. Jayasaro as a way to go about it.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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imagemarie
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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by imagemarie » Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:24 am

In a technology led world, where fundamental changes can occur and be embraced very quickly, I'm not sure that I understand the need for a soflty softly approach. Could someone explain it for me please?
Do societies, cultures, consciousness, always change incrementally? And what control do we have over any of these things? It would seem to me, in my ignorance, that the time is ripe. Over ripe. :shrug:

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pilgrim
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Re: Ajahn Brahms "Gender Equality and Empowerment of Women..

Post by pilgrim » Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:51 am

Ajahn Brahm's first did the bhikkhuni ordination in 2009. I think there was another this year, some 5 years later. Elsewhere there was like one or two in the US, and a batches in Sri Lanka and India. As far as I know there are no other notable ordinations anywhere else in the world. I don't know how much softer the process can go. Its not the ordinations that need to change but the rigid mindsets of the detractors.

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