Is Arahant a five aggregate?

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vinasp
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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by vinasp » Thu May 22, 2014 11:07 am

Hi everyone,

On contact: See Bodhi - NDB, book of fours 173 Kotthita, page 539.

"With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases for
contact there is the cessation of proliferation, the subsiding of proliferation."

Regards, Vincent.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu May 22, 2014 11:25 am

Greetings Vincent,

Well yes, that would explain why nippapanca is synonymous with nibbana... but I'm confused as to its correlation to the five aggregates. Can you explain?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Unrul3r
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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by Unrul3r » Thu May 22, 2014 11:58 am

SarathW wrote:Is Arahant a five aggregate?
The question is, whether five aggregate is applicable to Arahants body before Parinibbana.
:thinking:
SN 22.122 wrote:"But, friend Sariputta, what are the things that a bhikkhu who is an arahant should carefully attend to?"
"Friend Kotthita, a bhikkhu who is an arahant should carefully attend to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty, as nonself. For the arahant, friend, there is nothing further that has to be done and no repetition of what he has already done. However, when these things are developed and cultivated, they lead to a pleasant dwelling in this very life and to mindfulness and clear comprehension."

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Zom
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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by Zom » Thu May 22, 2014 12:17 pm

Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

It's only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html 8-)

vinasp
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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by vinasp » Thu May 22, 2014 12:34 pm

Hi retro,

Can I explain? Probably not but it's worth a try.

"With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases for
contact there is the cessation of proliferation, the subsiding of proliferation."

I would express this in another way:

"With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases for
contact there is the cessation of mental constructive activity."

What was constructed was "self-and-world", also called sakkaya (the five
clinging aggregates) and "suffering". This is the cessation of "this world."

What's left is the five aggregates - the conceit 'I am" and it's world.
This is called "another world". So the non-returner is said to be "one of
spontaneous arising" who will not return from "that world"

But this too is only a mental construction. So for the final state it is said
that "there is no this world, no other world."

Regards, Vincent.

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daverupa
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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by daverupa » Thu May 22, 2014 1:29 pm

Unrul3r wrote:
SarathW wrote:Is Arahant a five aggregate?
The question is, whether five aggregate is applicable to Arahants body before Parinibbana.
:thinking:
SN 22.122 wrote:"But, friend Sariputta, what are the things that a bhikkhu who is an arahant should carefully attend to?"
"Friend Kotthita, a bhikkhu who is an arahant should carefully attend to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty, as nonself. For the arahant, friend, there is nothing further that has to be done and no repetition of what he has already done. However, when these things are developed and cultivated, they lead to a pleasant dwelling in this very life and to mindfulness and clear comprehension."
Very nice, apt find.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by vinasp » Thu May 22, 2014 2:08 pm

Hi everyone,

Contradictions in the teachings.

The Buddha tells us that the monks who are "ordinary men" are ignorant and do not understand the four noble truths. Also that the monks who are "noble-disciples" have knowledge and that they do understand the truths. The same distinction applies to lay followers.

The "ordinary men" have a completely different understanding of the teachings.
So half of the discourses are composed for these ordinary men, so that they can "understand" the teachings. If they hear the teachings intended for noble disciples they find them incomprehensible.

At some point in time all the teachings were gathered together and written down , this is what we call the Sutta Pitaka.

The first thing to decide when looking at a discourse is -Who is this intended for?

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by Ananda26 » Thu May 22, 2014 2:34 pm

SarathW wrote:Is Arahant a five aggregate?
The question is, whether five aggregate is applicable to Arahants body before Parinibbana.
:thinking:
There is nothing in the 5 aggregates that can find a footing in the Arahant that would lead to a rebirth.

While his body persists before Parinibbana, he may seem to be composed of form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, but he does not cling to the 5 aggreagates affected by clinging.

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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by Mkoll » Thu May 22, 2014 4:16 pm

My view is that for the arahant, there is still the experience of consciousness, mind-body, the six sense bases, contact, and feeling. And there is no identification with these things because there is no craving, clinging, becoming, birth, death, ignorance, or volitional formations to be found.

But this is just speculation based upon "logical conjecture" (Kalama Sutta) and has no bearing on that which must be experienced. And that's something I hope we all experience sooner rather than later.

:smile:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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retrofuturist
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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu May 22, 2014 8:40 pm

Greetings,
daverupa wrote:
Unrul3r wrote:
SarathW wrote:Is Arahant a five aggregate?
The question is, whether five aggregate is applicable to Arahants body before Parinibbana.
:thinking:
SN 22.122 wrote:"But, friend Sariputta, what are the things that a bhikkhu who is an arahant should carefully attend to?"
"Friend Kotthita, a bhikkhu who is an arahant should carefully attend to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty, as nonself. For the arahant, friend, there is nothing further that has to be done and no repetition of what he has already done. However, when these things are developed and cultivated, they lead to a pleasant dwelling in this very life and to mindfulness and clear comprehension."
Very nice, apt find.
SN 22.122 is indeed interesting, but when the sutta is viewed in its entirety, it seems to be saying that all non-arahants ought to do some variety of satipatthana/vipassana meditation... And even though the arahant no longer needs to do so, because they're no longer tricked by such things (taking into account what Ven. Nanananda says about the aggregates and arahants in the earlier quote I provided), it would still be a pleasant abiding for them... like "flow", only better, because arahants are cool. 8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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tiltbillings
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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by tiltbillings » Thu May 22, 2014 9:10 pm

retrofuturist wrote: only better, because arahants are cool. 8-)
Pun intended?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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retrofuturist
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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu May 22, 2014 11:10 pm

8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

SarathW
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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by SarathW » Thu May 22, 2014 11:54 pm

Thanks all.
Great discussion!
Please also consider:
===============
The Buddha renounced the preparations pertaining to the life span,
ayusakhara, after several requests to that effect by Mara. It may seem
that the Buddha bowed down to Mara’s request and that he came under
Mara’s sway when he declared that the Tathagata’s Parinibbana will take
place three months hence. But the true implication of the verse in question
is that the armour of Mara, the armour of self-origin, attasambhava, has
been broken down already and as such he is not within the clutches of
Mara.
Some scholars seem to identify this giving up of preparations for
becoming, bhavasakhara, with the renouncing of preparations pertaining
to the lifespan, ayusakhara. But there is a distinction between these two.
The former, that is bhavasakhara, are preparations productive of
existence, which go to build up a bhava. These the Buddha had already
done away with by breaching the sasaric vortex between viññaa and
namarupa. Chinna vaa na vattati, "the whirlpool cut off whirls no
more".21 Those eddies are no longer active in that consciousness.
Preparations pertaining to the life span, ayusakhara, have to be
explained differently. The term ayusakhara, mentioned in the Maha-
Parinibbanasutta, refers to the ability the Buddha possessed by virtue of
developing the four bases of success, iddhipada, of lengthening his life
span. Because Venerable Ananda did not invite him at the correct moment
to make use of that ability, he renounced it at capala cetiya. That
renouncing is compared in that Sutta itself to a vomiting. The Buddha tells
Ananda that it is not in the nature of a Tathagata to take in what he has
already vomited, even for the sake of life.22
So then, ayusakhara and bhavasakhara have to be distinguished between.
Preparations pertaining to the life span are not the same as
preparations productive of existence or becoming.
P601
http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... led_VI.pdf
==========================

Please consider Abhidhamma 17 Thought moment.
"Javna" 7 thought moments (Kamma) for Arhants run as Phala.Phala (no kamma) ....etc.
P248
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri May 23, 2014 8:15 am

vinasp wrote: "With the remainderless fading away and cessation of the six bases for
contact there is the cessation of mental constructive activity."
But aren't the six ( internal ) bases just the sense organs plus mind?
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: Is Arahant a five aggregate?

Post by Dinsdale » Fri May 23, 2014 8:21 am

Mkoll wrote:My view is that for the arahant, there is still the experience of consciousness, mind-body, the six sense bases, contact, and feeling. And there is no identification with these things because there is no craving, clinging, becoming, birth, death, ignorance, or volitional formations to be found.
My understanding is that an Arahant is still "comprised" of the 5 aggregates, what has ceased is clinging and identification with them. I'm not sure about the sankhara aggregate though. ;)
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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