Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

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SarathW
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Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

Post by SarathW »

Is cessation of perception and feeling (9th Jhana) same as arahattaphalasamadhi?

This question is based on:

One is completely free from that prolific perception
when one is in the arahattaphalasamadhi, experiencing the cessation of
the six sense-spheres.

Page 570

http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... led_VI.pdf

:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
santa100
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Re: Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

Post by santa100 »

SarathW wrote:Is cessation of perception and feeling (9th Jhana) same as arahattaphalasamadhi?
The "Concentration of the Fruit of Arahantship" seems to be a state even beyond the Cessation of Perception and Feeling:
Sermon #26 wrote:Some interpret this incident as an illustration of the Buddha's attainment to the cessation of perceptions and feelings. But if it had been the case, the words saññī samāno jāgaro, "while being conscious and awake", would be out of place. That man expressed his wonder at the fact that the Buddha, while being conscious and awake, had not seen or heard anything, though it was raining in torrents with streaks of lightening and peals of thunder. Nor can this incident be interpreted as a reference to the realm of nothingness, ākiñcaññāyatana, in the context of the allusion to Āḷārā Kālāma and his less impressive psychic powers.
The true import of this extraordinary psychic feat has to be assessed with reference to the arahattaphalasamādhi, we have already discussed.
The incident had occurred while the Buddha was seated in arahattaphalasamādhi, experiencing the cessation of the six sense-spheres, equivalent to the cessation of the world. He had gone beyond the world - that is why he didn't see or hear.
SarathW
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Re: Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

Post by SarathW »

Thanks Santa
All this time I was under the impression that that Arahant can experience closest to Nibbana is the cessation of perception and feeling.
This shows that the Arahant experience Nibbana here and now.
This is very interesting!

:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

Post by SarathW »

Now I wonder why Anagamis and Arhants bother to attain cessation of perception and feeling.
:thinking:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
SarathW wrote:This shows that the Arahant experience Nibbana here and now.
This is very interesting!
Yes on both counts, and good that you see it. :thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Ananda26
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Re: Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

Post by Ananda26 »

SarathW wrote:Is cessation of perception and feeling (9th Jhana) same as arahattaphalasamadhi?

This question is based on:

One is completely free from that prolific perception
when one is in the arahattaphalasamadhi, experiencing the cessation of
the six sense-spheres.

There are many presentations of the 9 successive attainments in which a monk by completely surmounting the base of neither perception nor non-perception enters upon and abides in the cessation of perception and feeling and his taints are exhausted by his seeing with wisdom. So while in the 9th attainment it is a good time for a monk or nun to attain Nibbana.

But the cessation of perception and feeling is not always accompanied by the attainment of Nibbana, but it is still a good idea to promote it as a good opportunity for monks and nuns to attain Nibbana.

One is free from perception, including prolific perception, when one has attained the cessation of perception and feeling. Related to this is the signless diliverence of mind.

It is explained in Middle Length Discourse #121 how the signless deliverence of mind is used to gain freedom from the taints.

Here is a section from MLD#121:

"Further, Ananda, the monk — not attending to the perception of the dimension of nothingness, not attending to the perception of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception — attends to the singleness based on the sign-less concentration of mind. His mind takes pleasure, finds satisfaction, settles, & indulges in its sing-less concentration of mind.

"He discerns that 'This sing concentration of mind is fabricated & mentally fashioned.' And he discerns that 'Whatever is fabricated & mentally fashioned is inconstant & subject to cessation.' For him — thus knowing, thus seeing — the mind is released from the effluent of sensuality, the effluent of becoming, the effluent of ignorance. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

"He discerns that 'Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the taint of sensuality... the taint of becoming... the taint of ignorance, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' He discerns that 'This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... becoming... ignorance. And there is just this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition.' Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: 'There is this.' And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure — superior & unsurpassed.

"Ananda, whatever contemplatives and brahmans who in the past entered & remained in an emptiness that was pure, superior, & unsurpassed, they all entered & remained in this very same emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed. Whatever contemplatives and brahmans who in the future will enter & remain in an emptiness that will be pure, superior, & unsurpassed, they all will enter & remain in this very same emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed. Whatever contemplatives and brahmans who at present enter & remain in an emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed, they all enter & remain in this very same emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed.

"Therefore, Ananda, you should train yourselves: 'We will enter & remain in the emptiness that is pure, superior, & unsurpassed.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Ven. Ananda delighted in the Blessed One's words.
Here is a link for the entire discourse MLD#121

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Long Discourse #34 lists 5 bases of deliverence.
‘‘katame pañca dhammā abhiññeyyā? Pañca vimuttāyatanāni – idhāvuso, bhikkhuno satthā dhammaṃ deseti aññataro vā garuṭṭhāniyo sabrahmacārī. Yathā yathā, āvuso, bhikkhuno satthā dhammaṃ deseti, aññataro vā garuṭṭhāniyo sabrahmacārī, tathā tathā so [bhikkhu (syā. kaṃ.)] tasmiṃ dhamme atthappaṭisaṃvedī ca hoti dhammapaṭisaṃvedī ca. Tassa atthappaṭisaṃvedino dhammapaṭisaṃvedino pāmojjaṃ jāyati, pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati. Idaṃ paṭhamaṃ vimuttāyatanaṃ.

‘‘Puna caparaṃ, āvuso, bhikkhuno na heva kho satthā dhammaṃ deseti, aññataro vā garuṭṭhāniyo sabrahmacārī, api ca kho yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ vitthārena paresaṃ deseti yathā yathā, āvuso, bhikkhu yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ vitthārena paresaṃ deseti. Tathā tathā so tasmiṃ dhamme atthappaṭisaṃvedī ca hoti dhammapaṭisaṃvedī ca. Tassa atthappaṭisaṃvedino dhammapaṭisaṃvedino pāmojjaṃ jāyati, pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati. Idaṃ dutiyaṃ vimuttāyatanaṃ.

‘‘Puna caparaṃ, āvuso, bhikkhuno na heva kho satthā dhammaṃ deseti, aññataro vā garuṭṭhāniyo sabrahmacārī, nāpi yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ vitthārena paresaṃ deseti. Api ca kho, yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ vitthārena sajjhāyaṃ karoti. Yathā yathā, āvuso, bhikkhu yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ vitthārena sajjhāyaṃ karoti tathā tathā so tasmiṃ dhamme atthappaṭisaṃvedī ca hoti dhammapaṭisaṃvedī ca. Tassa atthappaṭisaṃvedino dhammapaṭisaṃvedino pāmojjaṃ jāyati, pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati. Idaṃ tatiyaṃ vimuttāyatanaṃ.

‘‘Puna caparaṃ, āvuso, bhikkhuno na heva kho satthā dhammaṃ deseti, aññataro vā garuṭṭhāniyo sabrahmacārī, nāpi yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ vitthārena paresaṃ deseti, nāpi yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ vitthārena sajjhāyaṃ karoti. Api ca kho, yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati. Yathā yathā , āvuso , bhikkhu yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati tathā tathā so tasmiṃ dhamme atthappaṭisaṃvedī ca hoti dhammapaṭisaṃvedī ca. Tassa atthappaṭisaṃvedino dhammapaṭisaṃvedino pāmojjaṃ jāyati, pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati. Idaṃ catutthaṃ vimuttāyatanaṃ.

‘‘Puna caparaṃ, āvuso, bhikkhuno na heva kho satthā dhammaṃ deseti, aññataro vā garuṭṭhāniyo sabrahmacārī, nāpi yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ vitthārena paresaṃ deseti, nāpi yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ vitthārena sajjhāyaṃ karoti, nāpi yathāsutaṃ yathāpariyattaṃ dhammaṃ cetasā anuvitakketi anuvicāreti manasānupekkhati; api ca khvassa aññataraṃ samādhinimittaṃ suggahitaṃ hoti sumanasikataṃ sūpadhāritaṃ suppaṭividdhaṃ paññāya. Yathā yathā, āvuso, bhikkhuno aññataraṃ samādhinimittaṃ suggahitaṃ hoti sumanasikataṃ sūpadhāritaṃ suppaṭividdhaṃ paññāya tathā tathā so tasmiṃ dhamme atthappaṭisaṃvedī ca hoti dhammappaṭisaṃvedī ca. Tassa atthappaṭisaṃvedino dhammappaṭisaṃvedino pāmojjaṃ jāyati, pamuditassa pīti jāyati, pītimanassa kāyo passambhati, passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti, sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati. Idaṃ pañcamaṃ vimuttāyatanaṃ. Ime pañca dhammā abhiññeyyā.
Here is a translation into English.
Five bases of deliverance: here

a. the teacher or a respected fellow disciple teaches a monk Dhamma. And as he receives the teaching, he gains a grasp of both the spirit and the letter of the teaching. At this, joy arises in him, and from this joy, delight; and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established;

b. he has not heard it thus, but in the course of the teaching Dhamma to others he has learnt it by heart as he has heard it, or

c. as he is chanting the Dhamma... or

d. ...when he applies his mind to the Dhamma, thinks and ponders over it and concentrates his attention on it; or

e. When he has properly grasped some concentration sign, has well considered it, applied his mind to it, and has well penetrated it with wisdom. At this, joy arises in him; and from this joy, delight, and by this delight his senses are calmed, he feels happiness as a result, and with this happiness his mind is established.
Last edited by Ananda26 on Tue May 20, 2014 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
santa100
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Re: Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

Post by santa100 »

SarathW wrote:Now I wonder why Anagamis and Arhants bother to attain cessation of perception and feeling.
Different pathways for different people depending on their dominant faculty as described in SN 12.70 and MN 70
Ananda26
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Re: Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

Post by Ananda26 »

SarathW wrote:Now I wonder why Anagamis and Arhants bother to attain cessation of perception and feeling.
:thinking:
Monk and Nun Anagamis striving for Arahantship and a pleasant abiding for both Anagamis and Arhants.
SarathW
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Re: Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

Post by SarathW »

In regard to OP it appears to me that Arhattaphalasamdhi means the "cessation of the six sense spheres" as oppose to "cessation of perception and felling".

P500:
http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... lled_V.pdf
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Re: Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

Post by dylanj »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue May 20, 2014 9:55 am Greetings,
SarathW wrote:This shows that the Arahant experience Nibbana here and now.
This is very interesting!
Yes on both counts, and good that you see it. :thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
i know i'm late to the party but yes this is great, that's the exact significance of it
Born, become, arisen – made, prepared, short-lived
Bonded by decay and death – a nest for sickness, perishable
Produced by seeking nutriment – not fit to take delight in


Departure from this is peaceful – beyond reasoning and enduring
Unborn, unarisen – free from sorrow and stain
Ceasing of all factors of suffering – stilling of all preparations is bliss
pegembara
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Re: Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

Post by pegembara »

What do you make of this then? Is this not considered Nibbana here and now?
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
“Venerable sir, since for the Blessed One feelings are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; perceptions are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; thoughts are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear – this too I remember as a wonderful and marvelous quality of the Blessed One.”
The meaning of final Nibbana is quite clear.
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
We are not talking about the meditative attainments of the arahants.
Last edited by pegembara on Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

Post by sentinel »

Question : can other ascetics whom practice four rupa and arupa jhana attain cessation of feeling perception ?
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Re: Is cessation of perception and feeling arahatta

Post by sentinel »

pegembara wrote: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:53 am What do you make of this then? Is this not considered Nibbana here and now?
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
“Venerable sir, since for the Blessed One feelings are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; perceptions are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear; thoughts are known as they arise, as they are present, as they disappear – this too I remember as a wonderful and marvelous quality of the Blessed One.”
The meaning of final Nibbana is quite clear.
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
We are not talking about the meditative attainments of the arahants.
Jhana (cessation of feeling perception) and Nibbana (not jhana) obviously different .
You always gain by giving
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