Why do Thai monks smoke?

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Luca123
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by Luca123 » Sun May 21, 2017 5:02 pm

BasementBuddhist wrote:Another example, I sometimes hitchhike to get to places I want to go for vacation, so I can save money for actual events when I get there. If someone offers me a cigarette while I ride with them, I always accept. Not because I am addicted, or because I crave one, but to ease social tensions and create a bond with my driver.
Would it also work if a layman or even a monk accepted sex from a stranger and then claim that he did that not out of craving but to ease social tensions?

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BasementBuddhist
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Sun May 21, 2017 5:24 pm

That depends. If they've taken vows that they hold as a serious part of their practice, and they believed that in doing so they would be violating their vows/practice, then it would not be the same.

I personally think, however, that if one has not taken a vow of chastity, and one does not see such an act as a violation of their practice, then go for it. If one is truly doing an act out of metta, in the context of sex, and both partners are consenting adults, with pleasure not as the aim but as a bi-product, without falling into uncontrolled desire and lust, then I would say that it is not craving and desire, but metta.

That said, I do not see very many men or women, monks, nuns, or laity, that can make sex an act separate from desire and craving, so it is not something that I would advise to be undertaken.

Karma is about intention. In The noble eightfold path one of the first two 'steps' is Right intention. Intention plays a large role in everything we do as Buddhists. Obviously some acts cause so much Dukkha that they should not be done, even with the best of intentions. It is through wisdom that we develop the ability to discern what they are.

Luca123
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by Luca123 » Sun May 21, 2017 5:35 pm

BasementBuddhist wrote:That depends. If they've taken vows that they hold as a serious part of their practice, and they believed that in doing so they would be violating their vows/practice, then it would not be the same.

I personally think, however, that if one has not taken a vow of chastity, and one does not see such an act as a violation of their practice, then go for it. If one is truly doing an act out of metta, in the context of sex, and both partners are consenting adults, with pleasure not as the aim but as a bi-product, without falling into uncontrolled desire and lust, then I would say that it is not craving and desire, but metta.
If people could have sex outside craving, then why have votes of chastity at all, in first place?
BasementBuddhist wrote:That said, I do not see very many men or women, monks, nuns, or laity, that can make sex as an act separate from desire and craving, so it is not something that I would advise to be undertaken.
And I do not see many people who can smoke abitually and have no craving at all about smoking

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BasementBuddhist
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Sun May 21, 2017 5:44 pm

Luca123 wrote:
BasementBuddhist wrote:That depends. If they've taken vows that they hold as a serious part of their practice, and they believed that in doing so they would be violating their vows/practice, then it would not be the same.

I personally think, however, that if one has not taken a vow of chastity, and one does not see such an act as a violation of their practice, then go for it. If one is truly doing an act out of metta, in the context of sex, and both partners are consenting adults, with pleasure not as the aim but as a bi-product, without falling into uncontrolled desire and lust, then I would say that it is not craving and desire, but metta.
If people could have sex outside craving, then why have votes of chastity at all, in first place?
BasementBuddhist wrote:That said, I do not see very many men or women, monks, nuns, or laity, that can make sex as an act separate from desire and craving, so it is not something that I would advise to be undertaken.
And I do not see many people who can smoke abitually and have no craving at all about smoking
Unless one can read minds, one is simply guessing at what another craves. As for sex without craving, from the previous post:
BasementBuddhist wrote:
That said, I do not see very many men or women, monks, nuns, or laity, that can make sex an act separate from desire and craving, so it is not something that I would advise to be undertaken.



Luca123
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by Luca123 » Sun May 21, 2017 6:38 pm

BasementBuddhist wrote:
Luca123 wrote:
BasementBuddhist wrote:That depends. If they've taken vows that they hold as a serious part of their practice, and they believed that in doing so they would be violating their vows/practice, then it would not be the same.

I personally think, however, that if one has not taken a vow of chastity, and one does not see such an act as a violation of their practice, then go for it. If one is truly doing an act out of metta, in the context of sex, and both partners are consenting adults, with pleasure not as the aim but as a bi-product, without falling into uncontrolled desire and lust, then I would say that it is not craving and desire, but metta.
If people could have sex outside craving, then why have votes of chastity at all, in first place?
BasementBuddhist wrote:That said, I do not see very many men or women, monks, nuns, or laity, that can make sex as an act separate from desire and craving, so it is not something that I would advise to be undertaken.
And I do not see many people who can smoke abitually and have no craving at all about smoking
Unless one can read minds, one is simply guessing at what another craves. As for sex without craving, from the previous post:
BasementBuddhist wrote:
That said, I do not see very many men or women, monks, nuns, or laity, that can make sex an act separate from desire and craving, so it is not something that I would advise to be undertaken.


If you claim that Unless one can read minds, one is simply guessing at what another crave than how can you then say that you do not see very many men or women, monks, nuns, or laity, that can make sex an act separate from desire and craving?

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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sun May 21, 2017 6:59 pm

unless someone forces one to smoke, you want to smoke... either to achieve some goal like fitting in or just for the feeling of it, in either way it is based on craving, craving to fit in or craving for the feeling or a certain state.
"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external? There being 'I am because of this (or: by means of this),' there comes to be 'I am here because of this,' there comes to be 'I am like this because of this' ... 'I am otherwise because of this' ... 'I am bad because of this' ... 'I am good because of this' ... 'I might be because of this' ... 'I might be here because of this' ... 'I might be like this because of this' ... 'I might be otherwise because of this' ... 'May I be because of this' ... 'May I be here because of this' ... 'May I be like this because of this' ... 'May I be otherwise because of this' ... 'I will be because of this' ... 'I will be here because of this' ... 'I will be like this because of this' ... 'I will be otherwise because of this.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external.

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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Sun May 21, 2017 7:52 pm

R1111 wrote:unless someone forces one to smoke, you want to smoke... either to achieve some goal like fitting in or just for the feeling of it, in either way it is based on craving, craving to fit in or craving for the feeling or a certain state.
"And which are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external? There being 'I am because of this (or: by means of this),' there comes to be 'I am here because of this,' there comes to be 'I am like this because of this' ... 'I am otherwise because of this' ... 'I am bad because of this' ... 'I am good because of this' ... 'I might be because of this' ... 'I might be here because of this' ... 'I might be like this because of this' ... 'I might be otherwise because of this' ... 'May I be because of this' ... 'May I be here because of this' ... 'May I be like this because of this' ... 'May I be otherwise because of this' ... 'I will be because of this' ... 'I will be here because of this' ... 'I will be like this because of this' ... 'I will be otherwise because of this.' These are the 18 craving-verbalizations dependent on what is external.
We all have motivations for doing things. That is the nature of phenomena. Conditions occur and things arise. Because those things arise new things arise. This is the nature of phenomena. Dependent origination. This arises because of that. So of course there is always a REASON to do something. The world does not occur without reason. But that reason does not have to be craving in any regard. It can be a "pure" reason such as one found under the auspices of Right Intention. I.E. The desire to renounce, metta, compasion. Smoking done for any of these reasons, smoking arising from any of these conditions, would not be due to craving.

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BasementBuddhist
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Sun May 21, 2017 7:57 pm

Remember, the point of practice is not to make the mind blank and empty. Doing nothing. This is death. This is denying human nature and the nature of the world. The mind is always changing because change is all. Impermanence. The point of practice is to remove the "defilements". This is done with intention, with reasoning, with action, and without greed. Not by doing nothing to avoid craving.

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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sun May 21, 2017 8:09 pm

The type of thinking that i quoted is to be abandoned.
Tanha Sutta: Craving
"This, monks is craving the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations."
Even wholesome desire is to be abandoned, demerit is to be abandoned as well as merit. In regards to wholesome desire i think there is the raft similie.
Last edited by R1111 = rightviewftw on Sun May 21, 2017 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BasementBuddhist
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Sun May 21, 2017 8:11 pm

Luca123 wrote:
If you claim that Unless one can read minds, one is simply guessing at what another crave than how can you then say that you do not see very many men or women, monks, nuns, or laity, that can make sex an act separate from desire and craving?

Very good point! Thank you for the correction. If I was enlightened, then I could say, but I am not. I will have to think on it. :goodpost:

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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Sun May 21, 2017 8:14 pm

R1111 wrote:The type of thinking that i quoted is to be abandoned.
Tanha Sutta: Craving
"This, monks is craving the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations."
Even wholesome desire is to be abandoned, demerit is to be abandoned as well as merit. In regards to wholesome desire i think there is the raft similie.
If even wholesome desire is to be abandoned, then what would motivate one to do something? The buddha spread his teachings out of a desire to end the suffering of the people.

If there is something I am not seeing here, I apologize. :anjali:

Maybe the confusion comes from how we define the word "Desire". Maybe I am blind. ^_^

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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sun May 21, 2017 8:18 pm

BasementBuddhist wrote:
R1111 wrote:The type of thinking that i quoted is to be abandoned.
Tanha Sutta: Craving
"This, monks is craving the ensnarer that has flowed along, spread out, and caught hold, with which this world is smothered & enveloped like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, & bad destinations."
Even wholesome desire is to be abandoned, demerit is to be abandoned as well as merit. In regards to wholesome desire i think there is the raft similie.
If even wholesome desire is to be abandoned, then what would motivate one to do something? The buddha spread his teachings out of a desire to end the suffering of the people.

If there is something I am not seeing here, I apologize. :anjali: Maybe the confusion comes from how we define the word "Desire". Maybe I am blind. ^_^
I don't think he did it out of desire, he was inclined not to teach until asked to teach. As i understand it the Arahants don't care either way, they do not have desire for any kind of existence or aversion to any kind of existence, they are just functional and do the right thing as in they will teach if asked to but they will not go out of their way to do it.
I wouldn't know for sure at this point of course:)
Last edited by R1111 = rightviewftw on Sun May 21, 2017 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Sun May 21, 2017 8:22 pm

But if you think about it logically, someone said "Hey, Lord Buddha, the people are really suffering out there. Even the Devas. Maybe you should share your knowledge? Please do it!"

The buddha had to make a choice, even doing nothing would have been a choice, What did he base his answer on? There had to be something. Nothing arises from nothing.

Edit: This is getting close to being a zen koan. :tongue:

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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sun May 21, 2017 8:29 pm

BasementBuddhist wrote:But if you think about it logically, someone said "Hey, Lord Buddha, the people are really suffering out there. Even the Devas. Maybe you should share your knowledge? Please do it!"

The buddha had to make a choice, even doing nothing would have been a choice, What did he base his answer on? There had to be something. Nothing arises from nothing.
Ayacana Sutta: The Request
...
"This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me."
...
Then Brahma Sahampati, having known with his own awareness the line of thinking in the Blessed One's awareness, thought: "The world is lost! The world is destroyed! The mind of the Tathagata, the Arahant, the Rightly Self-awakened One inclines to dwelling at ease, not to teaching the Dhamma!" Then...Brahma Sahampati disappeared from the Brahma-world and reappeared in front of the Blessed One...and said to him: "Lord, let the Blessed One teach the Dhamma! Let the One-Well-Gone teach the Dhamma! There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma."
...
Then the Blessed One, having understood Brahma's invitation, out of compassion for beings, surveyed the world with the eye of an Awakened One
...
he answered Brahma Sahampati in verse:

Open are the doors to the Deathless
to those with ears.
Let them show their conviction.
Perceiving trouble, O Brahma,
I did not tell people the refined,
sublime Dhamma.
Yes he did make the choice but what i mean is that there was no craving in him to teach, the Tathagata just has sympathy for living beings.
Last edited by R1111 = rightviewftw on Sun May 21, 2017 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Sun May 21, 2017 8:32 pm

Nice quote. Good point.

Maybe it isn't about choice: Maybe someone asked, compassion arose, and because compassion arose he taught. Dependent arising. Maybe this is the fact of what happened. Maybe the sky is blue and that is how it is. Maybe it isn't about choice. Maybe it is about training. Like how if the wind blows, then the water will stir.

So, if the Buddha taught out of compassion, could not one smoke out of compassion? :clap:

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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sun May 21, 2017 8:39 pm

BasementBuddhist wrote: So, if the Buddha taught out of compassion, could not one smoke out of compassion? :clap:
There is a story of an Arahant doing dhutanga practices to set an example for new generation. Not sure how compassion can be tied to habitual smoking.

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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Sun May 21, 2017 8:40 pm

R1111 wrote:
BasementBuddhist wrote: So, if the Buddha taught out of compassion, could not one smoke out of compassion? :clap:
There is a story of an Arahant doing dhutanga practices to set an example for new generation. Not sure how compassion can be tied to habitual smoking.

Neither am I, really! We do not know the situation. It is far more likely that the monks smoke out of habit. I just like to examine the idea. :juggling:

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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sun May 21, 2017 8:52 pm

BasementBuddhist wrote: Neither am I, really! We do not know the situation. It is far more likely that the monks smoke out of habit. I just like to examine the idea. :juggling:
I think one could theorize some situations where smoking could possibly be done for functional reasons but i think these would not apply to the type of habitual smoking discussed ITT.

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oncereturner
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by oncereturner » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:05 pm

I smoke e-cigarette, with a cheap liquid which has no flavour at all, and has reduced nicotine amount. I feel no pleasure smoking it, but I can't quit. It's a bad habit. Withdrawal causes me pain, craving and despair. I feel like suffocating without smoke. It's a paradox.

It makes me sad, that I'm so weak against Mara. I feel like in a prison, it causes much more pain, than pleasure. Nicotine is such a perfect tool of devil.

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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by murphythecat8 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:04 am

oncereturner wrote: but I can't quit. It's a bad habit.
why do you think you cant quit?

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