Why do Thai monks smoke?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
LXNDR
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by LXNDR »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:These days, “Fundamentalist” is used as a dirty word. It would be good to get back to the fundamentals.

Going on daily almsround before sunrise
it implies that the donors should be already up as well
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Venerable Bhaddāli, however, expressed his inability to manage this. The Buddha therefore allowed him to keep back a portion for later (M.i.438).
it appears the Buddha wasn't a fundamentalist :smile:
Spiny Norman
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by Spiny Norman »

David N. Snyder wrote: If someone claims a certain monk is an arahant and this same monk is a smoker, then they are mistaken.
Yes, an Arahant is supposed to be free from craving, and craving for nicotine makes people smoke...so.
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MidGe
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by MidGe »

Of course, a worldling is not capable of fathoming the reasons of another's behavior, let alone those of an arahant's (and that includes smoking).

In fact it is difficult enough to be aware of one's own reasons for doing things.

With metta
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by Spiny Norman »

MidGe wrote:Of course, a worldling is not capable of fathoming the reasons of another's behavior, let alone those of an arahant's (and that includes smoking).
In fact it is difficult enough to be aware of one's own reasons for doing things.
Smoking is a very unhealthy habit, so why do people do it? Because they are addicted to nicotine. And that includes monks. It seems quite straightforward to me.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by Spiny Norman »

seeker242 wrote:Has anyone ever seen someone run around outside naked, screaming, banging pots and pans at 2 AM, because they smoke cigarettes? I've seen alcohol and other drugs do that to people, but never tobacco. :lol:
It sounds like you've been on some interesting retreats. :tongue:
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Dharmapala
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by Dharmapala »

Kasina wrote:I'm sure this has probably been discussed before, but why do Thai monks smoke? Wouldn't this addiction be obstructive to the path?

Metta, J.
:anjali:
My brother-inlaw was a very respected monk, in Lop Buri, who was a avid tudong practitioner, everyone had very high hopes for him, but sadly he died of lung cancer from smoking.

I think smoking should be banned from the monkhood as it is a intoxicant, which ruins your health and is addictive.

Jon
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wonderingwanderer
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by wonderingwanderer »

Hi all,
Am new here and the reason that for joining was to explore the subject of those who claim to be Arahants whilst chewing betel. Was listening to an interesting recent talk by Joseph Goldstein over on Dharma Seed where he mentions Ajahn Maha Boowa giving a talk claiming to have reached Arahant status. Found the talk on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=508qgi_sJSs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- but was distressed to see him chewing betel. I do my best to keep the precept "To refrain from taking intoxicants that cloud the mind and cause heedlessness" - what gives with betel? Does it cause heedfulness?
Must say, very challenged. I understood that one eliminates sensual desire at non-returning.
It has taken me a few days to be able to register on this site. My burning desire to ask what other people think or know due to such a blow to my faith and confidence has been addressed by time, and by reading this thread in more detail. Glad to say that my confidence has returned.
Still, it is an interesting issue.
Last edited by wonderingwanderer on Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SarathW
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by SarathW »

Betel is a natural plant leaf.
In Sri Lanka we chew betel and areca nut to refresh mouth (smell) and protect teeth.

However some people chew tobacco with it. It may be bad.
But they are not as bad as alcohol.
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wonderingwanderer
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by wonderingwanderer »

Tobacco is also "natural" and is responsible for more deaths than any other plant as far as I am aware, and the World Health Organization classify betel as a carcinogen. That is not the point, why would anyone claiming to have reached any degree of liberation still be craving mind altering substances?
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DNS
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by DNS »

Tobacco is not necessary for any kind of nourishment and I don't know much about betel, but I don't think that is necessary for any nourishment either. So I am inclined to agree with you that not only would an arahant not consume them, but not an anagami either.
wikipedia wrote:Betel leaf is mostly consumed in Asia, and elsewhere in the world by some Asian emigrants, as betel quid or in paan, with or without tobacco, in an addictive psychostimulating and euphoria-inducing formulation with adverse health effects.[2][3] Betel is notable for staining the teeth of regular users.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
SarathW
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by SarathW »

Tooth paste is a recent invention.
Chowing betal after a meal was a common practice in Sri Lanka.
It is no difference to eating a meant leaf after meal.
What is bad about chowing betal is adding other substance like lime to it.
Now it is considered to a old fashion.
It appears chowing has some health benefit too.
:thinking:


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User156079
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by User156079 »

del
Last edited by User156079 on Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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samseva
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by samseva »

User156079 wrote:I will argue that Sotapannas could easily be smoking, probably trying to quit tho, as he will perceive it as conventional reality and dukkha.
Because if Desire for sense pleasure is removed at Anagami state and Sotapanna couldnt indulge in Sensual pleasure. That would imply that the Sotapanna would be supressing his Sense Desire at all times until Attainent of Anagami state potentially for 7 lifetimes.
While not all the Fetters would be uprooted for a sotāpanna, progress would have been made. There is a good chance a sotāpanna would be able to quit smoking with ease, if he were even to be smoking not long before or after having attained Stream-Entry.
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TonyConrad
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by TonyConrad »

I think there is a slippery slope here. Using those standards, one could argue that the basic stimulant effect is also similar to cocaine.
Addiction = craving induced
Smoking is usually an addiction and is extremely difficult to break. Look at all of the people using thousands of dollars they don't have to keep it up!
They .. will not listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata ..are being recited. They will not lend ear, will not set their hearts on knowing them, will not regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. ..Thus from corrupt Dhamma comes corrupt discipline; from corrupt discipline, corrupt Dhamma.

This, monks, is the fourth future danger .. work to get rid of it.

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Jojola
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Re: Why do Thai monks smoke?

Post by Jojola »

wonderingwanderer wrote:Hi all,
Am new here and the reason that for joining was to explore the subject of those who claim to be Arahants whilst chewing betel. Was listening to an interesting recent talk by Joseph Goldstein over on Dharma Seed where he mentions Ajahn Maha Boowa giving a talk claiming to have reached Arahant status. Found the talk on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=508qgi_sJSs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- but was distressed to see him chewing betel. I do my best to keep the precept "To refrain from taking intoxicants that cloud the mind and cause heedlessness" - what gives with betel? Does it cause heedfulness?
Must say, very challenged. I understood that one eliminates sensual desire at non-returning.
It has taken me a few days to be able to register on this site. My burning desire to ask what other people think or know due to such a blow to my faith and confidence has been addressed by time, and by reading this thread in more detail. Glad to say that my confidence has returned.
Still, it is an interesting issue.
The habit is the problem, Maha Boowa here may actually have indeed conquered the cause of suffering, he may not have; the betel nut, or even if it was a cigarette or a bowl of pipe tobacco, alone, doesn't tell us much to this regard. Just because asavas are destroyed that doesn't mean all remnants of ones personalities and preferences are gone (the noisy crowd seemed to have displeased The Buddha but not so much Mogallana or Sariputta and they were all Arahants [Catuma Sutta]), the khandas remain, the individual still remains - just without asavas, and only upon death are the khandas completely gone.

I personally don't think it's unreasonable, let alone impossible, to imagine that he could be clean of asavas; because say in a situation where access to betel nut is not available, would he care? My guess is no. Same for when he was doing his intensive training for months on end, I don't think it was his concern whether he had betel nut or not. And just because it's in his personality to do so (chew betel), in times of leisure, I don't think that alone mean he has asavas.

Now if he was to have gone through trouble and inconvenience himself or someone else for it (i.e. if it was a habit), that would be another story, but we don't have any evidence to determine one way or another here.

The habit (subject) is the problem, I don't see how the object is.
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