Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

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dylanj
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by dylanj » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:32 pm

Jlw264 wrote:
greenjuice wrote:
Consciousness or vinnana is one of the khandhas and of course is not eternal. The citta is eternal. Just remember what the Lord Buddha said, the Thatagata after dead neither is nor is not. The citta is not individualistic, not personal. How could the Lord Buddha talk to Acharn Mun presenting Dhamma to him in the form of the Lord
Buddha, if there is nothing that is eternal and everything dies away? We grasp the term citta wrongly, we think every beeing has a citta, no that is not right, every being is part of that one citta, that is eternal.
http://www.theravada-dhamma.org/pdf/Aja ... anatta.pdf

Does anyone know what is meant here- how did the Lord Buddha talk to Acharn Mun?
I respect Acharn Mun a lot and grateful for reviving forest sangha tradition in Thailand. However, according to my understanding of the dhamma, I find it hard to accept that he was able to converse with Buddhas and Arahants.
Only appropriate comment of this sort i've seen thus far...
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:47 pm

The Buddha Gotama was able to recollect his previous life during the time of the Buddha Kassapa, when he was the Brahmin youth Jotipāla, and ordained under the Buddha.

He also related the Āmagandha Sutta that was taught by Buddha Kassapa.

So, although the previous Buddha's and Arahants have passed away without any body, mind, or soul that could visit anyone, someone with the recollection of previous lives could cast their mind back to a time when they were alive. They could also talk to deities who were alive during those times.
AIM ForumsPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)

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dylanj
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by dylanj » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:53 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:The Buddha Gotama was able to recollect his previous life during the time of the Buddha Kassapa, when he was the Brahmin youth Jotipāla, and ordained under the Buddha.

He also related the Āmagandha Sutta that was taught by Buddha Kassapa.

So, although the previous Buddha's and Arahants have passed away without any body, mind, or soul that could visit anyone, someone with the recollection of previous lives could cast their mind back to a time when they were alive. They could also talk to deities who were alive during those times.
Vandāmi bhante. Thank you.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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mikenz66
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 10:43 pm

Hi maranadhammomhi,
maranadhammomhi wrote:
Dhammanando wrote: In the present case what was principally imparted in the Buddha’s alleged revelations to Ajahn Mun was divine confirmation that the manner of monastic practice in Thailand, and especially in the Dhammayuttika Nikāya, and most especially at Wat Pa Baan Taad (Ajahn Maha Bua’s monastery) was exactly like that of arahant bhikkhus in the Buddha’s day
...
Like the cardinal with his ‘special revelations’, Ajahn Maha Bua could justify virtually anything simply by claiming that it had been directly revealed to Ajahn Mun by the Buddha himself.
Bhante please forgive me but you are misrepresenting both Venerable Ajaan Mun & Ajahn Maha Bua to a very concerning degree. Here I will respond to the comment quoted above but also the previous comment you made.
I wouldn't presume to speak for Ajahn Dhammanando, but he's been an on-line companion for many of us for over a decade, and last year I spent a week at the Thai Wat at which he was based at the time: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 60#p369695

My impression from his posts is that he is calling on his experience as both a Dhammayut-ordained bhikkhu (from the early 80s) and a Mayahikaya-ordained Bhikkhu (after a short break in lay life a couple of decades later). He has broad experience in a variety of Thai Wats, including Maha Bua's. You can find this, and other, information scattered about the Forum.

When he says:
Dhammanando wrote:Ajahn Maha Bua could justify virtually anything simply by claiming that it had been directly revealed to Ajahn Mun by the Buddha himself.
I don't believe he's referring to books, but to what he observed during his time at Ajahn Maha Bua's Wat.

I know that many here find the writings and talks of various Asian and Western teachers very inspiring, and I would not want to put people off finding inspiration in Ajahns such as Mun, Chah, and Maha Bua. On the other hand, I would be cautious about taking their various reported statements, translated from Thai with various levels of accuracy and various levels of context, as completely accurate. At best, it's a partial picture, and first-hand reports from people such as Ajahn Dhammanando (among others) are very useful to understanding the context.

:heart:
Mike

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dylanj
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by dylanj » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:07 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hi maranadhammomhi,
maranadhammomhi wrote:
Dhammanando wrote: In the present case what was principally imparted in the Buddha’s alleged revelations to Ajahn Mun was divine confirmation that the manner of monastic practice in Thailand, and especially in the Dhammayuttika Nikāya, and most especially at Wat Pa Baan Taad (Ajahn Maha Bua’s monastery) was exactly like that of arahant bhikkhus in the Buddha’s day
...
Like the cardinal with his ‘special revelations’, Ajahn Maha Bua could justify virtually anything simply by claiming that it had been directly revealed to Ajahn Mun by the Buddha himself.
Bhante please forgive me but you are misrepresenting both Venerable Ajaan Mun & Ajahn Maha Bua to a very concerning degree. Here I will respond to the comment quoted above but also the previous comment you made.
I wouldn't presume to speak for Ajahn Dhammanando, but he's been an on-line companion for many of us for over a decade, and last year I spent a week at the Thai Wat at which he was based at the time: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f ... 60#p369695

My impression from his posts is that he is calling on his experience as both a Dhammayut-ordained bhikkhu (from the early 80s) and a Mayahikaya-ordained Bhikkhu (after a short break in lay life a couple of decades later). He has broad experience in a variety of Thai Wats, including Maha Bua's. You can find this, and other, information scattered about the Forum.

When he says:
Dhammanando wrote:Ajahn Maha Bua could justify virtually anything simply by claiming that it had been directly revealed to Ajahn Mun by the Buddha himself.
I don't believe he's referring to books, but to what he observed during his time at Ajahn Maha Bua's Wat.

I know that many here find the writings and talks of various Asian and Western teachers very inspiring, and I would not want to put people off finding inspiration in Ajahns such as Mun, Chah, and Maha Bua. On the other hand, I would be cautious about taking their various reported statements, translated from Thai with various levels of accuracy and various levels of context, as completely accurate. At best, it's a partial picture, and first-hand reports from people such as Ajahn Dhammanando (among others) are very useful to understanding the context.

:heart:
Mike
Yes this is all true but I don't think it precludes the points I made, which were addressing his criticisms of Ajaan Mun, not his criticisms of Maha Bua. I don't think he's ever met Ajaan Mun. If his firsthand experience is with Ajahn Maha Bua & his temple then of course he should talk about that but I don't see how that experience could lead him to the knowledge that Ajaan Mun was psychotic, had meager familiarity with the Buddha's teachings & no teachers, & claimed to have spoken with Gotama Buddha (when as I quoted we have a claim that he in fact specified the opposite), etc.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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mikenz66
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:51 pm

Hi maranadhammomhi,

Yes, I only addressed one of your posts, which was primarily about Ajahn Dhammanado's observations about Ajahn Maha Bua.

I can't really comment on Ajahn Mun, but of course many of the details about him come from Ajahn Maha Bua's biography, not from him directly. I recall that there is another biography that is somewhat different, but I can't locate it right now.

:heart:
Mike

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cjmacie
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by cjmacie » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:50 am

(Haven't read all 145 posts here, so this may be redundant.)

I've read that during some historical periods and in some Buddhist sects, it was common for practitioners, monks to have visions of, directly listen to the Buddha. An interpretation of why includes the idea that there was a kind of certainty about the direct dhamma very early on (among those who actually witnessed the Buddha when he was alive), but over generations lacking that immediacy, dhamma would tend to veer off in perhaps other directions. Having vision-contact with the Buddha, for those not alive way back when, is a way of reestablishing authority, so to speak, for one's interpretation of the dhamma.

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zerotime
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by zerotime » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:46 am

these type of episodes sounds intolerable in this materialistic age.

funny at all

R1111 = rightviewftw
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:55 pm

Read first 5 pages, skimmed the rest
First 4-5 pages were extremely interesting thanks to all.
Just remember what the Lord Buddha said, the Thatagata after dead neither is nor is not.
Wrong view right there and The Buddha never said this.
Sariputta-Kotthita Sutta: Sariputta and Kotthita 4
"Well then, does the Tathagata neither exist nor not exist after death?"
"That too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata neither exists nor does not exist after death.'"
Anuradha Sutta: To Anuradha
"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."
There are more like this and it is sort of a mark of right view to not get these question wrong. If OP represents the View of The person in question it is certainly wrong view that is represented.

Supernova
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Re: Buddha talked to Acharn Mun?

Post by Supernova » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:50 am

Very interesting thread, i found a related thread on reddit about Thai Forest Sect
https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comme ... theravada/

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