Ticks and fleas

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:David what do you think a person's mind state would be when performing euthanasia? Can euthanasia ever be an action in isolation? If there is no aversion where is the need for euthanasia?

From "Revata's Farewell"

I don't delight in death,
don't delight in living.
I await my time
like a worker his wage.
I don't delight in death,
don't delight in living.
I await my time
mindful, alert.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
A lovely verse, but no mention is made of mind searing pain, etc.
Which is neither here nor there.
Except you are the one that quoted this verse in the context of euthanasia. Bringing one's life or another's life to an early end is usually in a context of the sometimes excruciating nature of the dying. So, the question of mind searing pain, etc is here and it is there.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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DNS
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by DNS »

Mr Man wrote:David what do you think a person's mind state would be when performing euthanasia?
I don't know, possibly compassion, loving-kindness for wanting the being to free from pain.
If there is no aversion where is the need for euthanasia?
Aversion from what? Suffering? Then is following the 8-fold path an aversion of suffering too?
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Mr Man
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by Mr Man »

Tilt, to me the quote is an expression of equanimity and dispassion, which can be applicable to all conditions but maybe it was a mistake and a distraction. How about the questions that proceeded the quote?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:Tilt, to me the quote is an expression of equanimity and dispassion, which can be applicable to all conditions but maybe it was a mistake and a distraction. How about the questions that proceeded the quote?
An interesting consideration may be the monk who killed himself because of the pain he was suffering and attained nibbana?

The commentaries point out that the monk who is suffering from a debilitating illness with severe pain putting a great strain on his fellow monk, to stop eating is acceptable. The question as motivation is key, and I do not think that there is a simple, absolute answer to it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by Mr Man »

David N. Snyder wrote: Aversion from what? Suffering? Then is following the 8-fold path an aversion of suffering too?
Yes.
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Mr Man
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Tilt, to me the quote is an expression of equanimity and dispassion, which can be applicable to all conditions but maybe it was a mistake and a distraction. How about the questions that proceeded the quote?
An interesting consideration may be the monk who killed himself because of the pain he was suffering and attained nibbana?

The commentaries point out that the monk who is suffering from a debilitating illness with severe pain putting a great strain on his fellow monk, to stop eating is acceptable. The question as motivation is key, and I do not think that there is a simple, absolute answer to it.
I wonder if this is the same kind of non-eating:

I'd like to relate to you an account I once came across of the way that people in the time of the Buddha prepared for death. For those who kept the Precepts of Virtuous Conduct fasting was not at all difficult because they were used to abstaining from an evening meal on Uposatha [26] days. When their illness reached the point that they felt that they had no more than ten days left to live they would stop eating. Not like us. These days, if someone is close to death we go out and look for the most expensive and delicious foods, so that some people even die prematurely from the food. Their efforts to avoid food were for the purpose of having a mind completely undisturbed. When the body starts to run down it loses its ability to digest food and so anything consumed turns to poison, making the mind restless and confused.

So they prepared themselves for death by abstaining from food and taking only water or medicine. As death got closer, they would stop taking even water or medicine in order to focus their mindfulness and self - awareness, so as to die in the way of remainderless extinction.

From Ajahn Buddhadassa, Heartwood of the Bo Tree http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/books ... o_tree.htm
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tiltbillings
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Tilt, to me the quote is an expression of equanimity and dispassion, which can be applicable to all conditions but maybe it was a mistake and a distraction. How about the questions that proceeded the quote?
An interesting consideration may be the monk who killed himself because of the pain he was suffering and attained nibbana?

The commentaries point out that the monk who is suffering from a debilitating illness with severe pain putting a great strain on his fellow monk, to stop eating is acceptable. The question as motivation is key, and I do not think that there is a simple, absolute answer to it.
I wonder if this is the same kind of non-eating:

I'd like to relate to you an account I once came across of the way that people in the time of the Buddha prepared for death. For those who kept the Precepts of Virtuous Conduct fasting was not at all difficult because they were used to abstaining from an evening meal on Uposatha [26] days. When their illness reached the point that they felt that they had no more than ten days left to live they would stop eating. Not like us. These days, if someone is close to death we go out and look for the most expensive and delicious foods, so that some people even die prematurely from the food. Their efforts to avoid food were for the purpose of having a mind completely undisturbed. When the body starts to run down it loses its ability to digest food and so anything consumed turns to poison, making the mind restless and confused.

So they prepared themselves for death by abstaining from food and taking only water or medicine. As death got closer, they would stop taking even water or medicine in order to focus their mindfulness and self - awareness, so as to die in the way of remainderless extinction.

From Ajahn Buddhadassa, Heartwood of the Bo Tree http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/books ... o_tree.htm
It is a form of suicide.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by daverupa »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Tilt, to me the quote is an expression of equanimity and dispassion, which can be applicable to all conditions but maybe it was a mistake and a distraction. How about the questions that proceeded the quote?
An interesting consideration may be the monk who killed himself because of the pain he was suffering and attained nibbana?
The Ven. Godhika (but surely this sort of story must have been fairly common...). He kept falling away from jhana due to physical pain, in fact, and so could not await his time as one might wait for a paycheck.

The Ven. Channa also comes to mind. He and Sariputta & Maha Cunda actually had a discussion about suicide on that occasion (MN 144).
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Ben
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by Ben »

But there are no absolutes in human misery and things can always get worse

-- Suttree, Cormac McCarthy
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..
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seeker242
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by seeker242 »

mikenz66 wrote: Again, no-one is advocating letting someone suffer an agonizing death.
I don't know. It doesn't appear that way to me. If a dog and it's living area contracts a serious flea infestation you generally only have two choices. Kill the fleas or let the dog suffer and die an agonizing death. If you say "no you should not kill the fleas", you are by default saying "yes you should let the dog suffer and die an agonizing death".
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mikenz66
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Re: Ticks and fleas

Post by mikenz66 »

seeker242 wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: Again, no-one is advocating letting someone suffer an agonizing death.
I don't know. It doesn't appear that way to me. If a dog and it's living area contracts a serious flea infestation you generally only have two choices. Kill the fleas or let the dog suffer and die an agonizing death. If you say "no you should not kill the fleas", you are by default saying "yes you should let the dog suffer and die an agonizing death".
There may be a way of persuading the fleas to leave the dog without killing them, or getting ants to stay out of your kitchen without killing them, etc. Maybe not so quick and easy...

Of course, sometimes there isn't a viable alternative, and you're back to one of those difficult "lesser of two evils" situations.

:anjali:
Mike
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