Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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SarathW
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Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:12 am

Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?
Please forgive me for bringing this hot topic question that never seems to get an answer.
But I am asking the question in a different angle.
If my present existence is due to my past ignorance (self view – not knowing four noble truths etc) then I can say that I have a self.
If I do not eliminate the self view in this life I will continue in to the future.
Though there is no permanent and unchanging entity, the thought “I” will continue in to the future or my ignorance (self view) continue to the future.
“I think so I am”
So based on that assumption, can I say that I have a self view so I have a self until I attain Nirvana?
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

chownah
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by chownah » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:14 am

I'm not sure but I think you are saying that a self view causes a self to exist. I think that generally speaking views do not cause things to exist....views are just views, they are not causative agents......I guess.....don't know for sure.......
chownah

pegembara
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by pegembara » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:46 am

We determine things into existence through use of conventions. We see a small child lost in a forest but the tiger sees food. Me, you, he, she, mom, dad are all conventions and only exist in our minds. In the same way self is a convention. This does not mean that there is nothing out there but the way to freedom is inwards.

You have a self view so you have a self until you attain Nirvana. That attainment is always here and now; not some time in the future.The Dhamma is Sanditthiko(Apparent here and now), Akaliko(Timeless), Ehipassiko(Encouraging investigation), Opanayiko(Leading inwards), Paccattam veditabbo vinnuhi ti (To be experienced by the wise).
Appearances are determined into existence. Why must we determine them? Because they don't intrinsically exist. For example, suppose somebody wanted to make a marker. He would take a piece of wood or a rock and place it on the ground, and then call it a marker. Actually it's not a marker. There isn't any marker, that's why you must determine it into existence. In the same way we ''determine'' cities, people, cattle - everything! Why must we determine these things? Because originally they do not exist.

Concepts such as ''monk'' and ''layperson'' are also ''determinations.'' We determine these things into existence because intrinsically they aren't here. It's like having an empty dish - you can put anything you like into it because it's empty. This is the nature of determined reality. Men and women are simply determined concepts, as are all the things around us.

If we know the truth of determinations clearly, we will know that there are no beings, because ''beings'' are determined things. Understanding that these things are simply determinations, you can be at peace. But if you believe that the person, being, the ''mine,'' the ''theirs,'' and so on are intrinsic qualities, then you must laugh and cry over them. These are the proliferation of conditioning factors. If we take such things to be ours there will always be suffering. This is micch?ditthi, wrong view. Names are not intrinsic realities, they are provisional truths. Only after we are born do we obtain names, isn't that so? Or did you have your name already when you were born? The name comes afterwards, right? Why must we determine these names? Because intrinsically they aren't there.
http://www.amaravati.org/teachingsofaja ... cle/480/P4
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SarathW
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by SarathW » Tue May 20, 2014 12:46 am

Why does the Tathagata not declare the sense-data categorically as
true or false? He knows that, given ignorance, they are true, and that they
are falsified only when ignorance fades away in one who sees the
cessation. It is for such a person that the sense-bases appear as false and
consciousness appears as a conjurer’s trick.
Fortified with that understanding, he does not categorically assert the
sense-data as true, nor does he reprimand those who assert them as the
truth. That is why the Buddha advocates a tolerant attitude in this
discourse. This is the typical attitude of an understanding elder to the
questions put by an inquisitive toddler.

P566
http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... led_VI.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Goofaholix
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by Goofaholix » Tue May 20, 2014 1:46 am

Self is a view, it's conceptual.

So yes self view is created by self view.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

Ananda26
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by Ananda26 » Tue May 20, 2014 2:30 pm

SarathW wrote:Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?
Please forgive me for bringing this hot topic question that never seems to get an answer.
But I am asking the question in a different angle.
If my present existence is due to my past ignorance (self view – not knowing four noble truths etc) then I can say that I have a self.
If I do not eliminate the self view in this life I will continue in to the future.
Though there is no permanent and unchanging entity, the thought “I” will continue in to the future or my ignorance (self view) continue to the future.
“I think so I am”
So based on that assumption, can I say that I have a self view so I have a self until I attain Nirvana?
:shrug:
Non self is an advanced subject.
An Arahant can refer to himself conventionally, but in the absolute sense he regards form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness as not self.

The problem with viewing the 5 aggregates affected by clinging as self is that they are impermanent and subject to change. Then with the change of the 5 aggregates arises sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress.

One does not regard the 5 aggregates affected by clinging as self. Then with the change of the 5 aggregates there does not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, sadness, and distress.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue May 20, 2014 7:35 pm

Ajahn Thanissaro talks of
the craving to become something — in other words, to take on an identity in a specific world of experience. The identity often plays into the world, the world plays into the identity. Whatever identity you build around a desire will then determine the parts of the world you pay attention to, in terms of whether they help or hinder you from attaining that desire. At the same time, whichever world you're thinking about right now — whether it's the world of sports, politics, or your family — will then determine the kind of identity you want to take on in that world. And we crave these things.
Having a particular view of ourselves as things in the world means that we crave certain experiences as a means of keeping that identity going. And that fabricated craving can, of course, lead to a new or reinforced sense of self, and so on.

SarathW
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by SarathW » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:51 pm

"There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are spontaneously reborn beings; there are in the world good and virtuous recluses and brahmins who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.” (MN 117/iii,72)
"

This easily overlooked passage offers a very acute description of an authentic attitude of a puthujjana—the attitude of recognition and acknowledgment of the existence of things as phenomena (“there is...”).

https://pathpress.files.wordpress.com/2 ... stence.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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dhammacoustic
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by dhammacoustic » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:14 am

SarathW wrote:
If I do not eliminate the self view in this life I will continue in to the future.
I don't really think there is a future. There is just now - which we experience, and the memory of the past - which we're mentally and physically built on. What we know as 'future' is only mental fabrications.

Basically, this is the future. This is the one-life and practically, there is no rebirth, because rebirth doesn't matter, it is absolutely irrelevant, not something related to sensory experience. There is just 'now', and now is suffering.

Can't possibly be commenting on an arahant's perception, since I know nothing about it (not to mention I've never seen anything of it other than on paper).

:anjali:
Uppādā vā tathagātanaṃ anuppādā vā tathagātanaṃ, ṭhitāva sā dhātu dhammaṭṭhitatā dhammaniyāmatā idappaccayatā. Taṃ tathagāto abhisam­buj­jhati abhisameti. Abhisam­bujjhitvā abhisametvā ācikkhati deseti paññāpeti paṭṭhapeti vivarati vibhajati uttānīkaroti. ‘Passathā’ti cāha; ‘avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā’. Iti kho, bhikkhave, yā tatra tathatā avitathatā anaññathatā idappaccayatā-ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamup­pādo.
:heart: namō tassa bhagavatō, arahatō, sammā sambuddhassā

SarathW
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:31 am

I see your point.
What we (conventionally) called the present is in fact the past.
What we say future is the present thought with the action.
:shrug:

PS: What this mean is that we can't trust the information coming from six sense media. Hence we should not attach or averse to them. We should exercise the perfect equanimity for them.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

perkele
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by perkele » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:14 am

chownah wrote:Of course views are causative agents, for intentions and actions that spring from these views.
pegmembra wrote:Opanayiko(Leading inwards),
I always thought, opanayiko means leading onwards, not inwards. But I am no Pali expert.[/quote]


I think self-view as a self-fulfilling prophecy makes some sense.

:shrug:
Last edited by perkele on Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mkoll
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by Mkoll » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:33 am

silver surfer wrote:
SarathW wrote:
If I do not eliminate the self view in this life I will continue in to the future.
I don't really think there is a future. There is just now - which we experience, and the memory of the past - which we're mentally and physically built on. What we know as 'future' is only mental fabrications.

Basically, this is the future. This is the one-life and practically, there is no rebirth, because rebirth doesn't matter, it is absolutely irrelevant, not something related to sensory experience. There is just 'now', and now is suffering.

Can't possibly be commenting on an arahant's perception, since I know nothing about it (not to mention I've never seen anything of it other than on paper).

:anjali:
The Buddha, as shown by the Pali Canon, was quite clear that there are three times: past, future, present. This is in many suttas. Here is one where you'll notice that the approach to the sense-base in each time is different, underscoring a reason for why he differentiated between them in the first place.
SN 35.7 wrote:At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, the eye is impermanent, both of the past and the future, not to speak of the present. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple is indifferent towards the eye of the past; he does not seek delight in the eye of the future; and he is practising for revulsion towards the eye of the present, for its fading away and cessation.

“The ear is impermanent … The nose is impermanent … The tongue is impermanent … The body is impermanent … The mind is impermanent, both of the past and the future, not to speak of the present. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple is indifferent towards the mind of the past … for its fading away and cessation.”


He was also quite clear that there is rebirth and that it does matter. I should hope there's no need to cite evidence of this as it's elementary.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

SarathW
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:52 am

Yes, conventional or relative sense there is a past, present and a future.
Ultimate sense they all just the impermanence (change)
When we look at a conventional clock we can see the present past and future to some degree.
But if we look at an atomic clock it will not be the same.
What is the smallest part of the time?
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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srivijaya
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by srivijaya » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:40 am

SarathW wrote:What this mean is that we can't trust the information coming from six sense media. Hence we should not attach or averse to them. We should exercise the perfect equanimity for them.
I don't think it's a question of whether we can trust the information coming from the six sense media or not. It's not a question of whether things ultimately exist or not - or to what extent they do or don't exist. To what extent the "illusion" of reality tricks us etc. etc. etc.

All that matters is how we respond to that information. Is it an habitual conditioned response or are we able to use that opportunity as a release.

SarathW
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:49 pm

Thanks Srivijaya.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Bundokji
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by Bundokji » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:05 am

In my mind, it seems that our inability to see where self view comes from makes us limited by it, hence we think that the "I" is something original :smile:
“It happened that a fire broke out backstage in a theater. The clown came out to inform the public. They thought it was a jest and applauded. He repeated his warning. They shouted even louder. So I think the world will come to an end amid the general applause from all the wits who believe that it is a joke.”
Søren Kierkegaard

SarathW
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:38 am

Great discussion with Joseph Goldsine.


https://youtu.be/p9GgDJw192I
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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WindDancer
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Re: Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?

Post by WindDancer » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:31 am

SarathW wrote:Is self view, a self fulfilling prophecy?
Please forgive me for bringing this hot topic question that never seems to get an answer.
But I am asking the question in a different angle.
If my present existence is due to my past ignorance (self view – not knowing four noble truths etc) then I can say that I have a self.
If I do not eliminate the self view in this life I will continue in to the future.
Though there is no permanent and unchanging entity, the thought “I” will continue in to the future or my ignorance (self view) continue to the future.
“I think so I am”
So based on that assumption, can I say that I have a self view so I have a self until I attain Nirvana?
:shrug:
Interesting question. This is what I have to add:

The life I live and all I experience seem to be the results of a vast river flowing along of causes and conditions, some seen and some unseen. As the Buddha stated, it would drive one mad to try to determine all the causes and conditions that led us to make a particular choice at a particular place and time. We can do nothing or very little about many of these causes and conditions; however, through the practices handed down to us from the Buddha, we can see more clearly the part we are playing in creating views, perspectives, beliefs and opinions. Seen and unseen causes and conditions help to form the views we have of ourselves. Then our thoughts, feelings and actions grow out of these conditions and views to motivate us, guiding our thoughts, feelings and actions.

For example, if some children are nurtured in an honest way and are cultivated to believe they are smart, talented, capable, valued, etc., they are more likely to develop similar views and beliefs of themselves. No matter what others say or do out in the world, these children will tend to maintain a sense of confidence and sense of value. They will likely make choices and hold views, opinions and beliefs far different from children who were berated, told they were worthless, had no value, told they were not good enough, etc. Both children may be equally talented and capable, but the self views they maintain will likely change the courses of their lives in the schooling they pursue, the careers they choose, the mates they choose and the types of lives they live. The physical reality may be that they both are equally talented and valued, but their internalized self views are not the same. Their views of the world and of themselves will likely result in experiencing life quite differently, even in similar circumstances.

Another example: Some children raised in poverty may feel deprived and feel self pity; however, I have know some that have been raised in these conditions that never realized or recognized that they were poor. Their hearts were filled with love and gratitude, they had their basic needs met, and they lived content and happy lives free from clinging and addiction. Here these children lived in similar conditions but their self views and views of the world were quite different. Having different views, they made different choices and experienced life quite differently.

The Buddha gave us practices to see ourselves and the world around us more clearly. We can more clearly see the views, beliefs, opinions we hold. Then we can decide which ones serve us and which ones to let go. The views we used to hold of ourselves have influenced us to this point in our lives, but we can be set free from this delusion once we see more clearly. Then these self views will no longer be a self fulfilling prophecy. We have been set free by seeing clearly. From then on we can choose whether those views serve us or not. Once the spell of delusion has been broken, it is quite difficult to truly claim that we have no choice but to think, feel and act the ways we always have in the past.

This is how I see things at this stage of the journey, and gaining this type of freedom gives me hope ......

May all beings be happy,

WindDancer
Live Gently....

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