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Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:42 am
by gavesako
From reading the information on this website, it seems that Neil Peppe (whose grandfather found the Buddha's relics and jewels at Piprahwa) is going to auction (sell) the jewels:
On 31st May, 1.45pm (UK Time) I appear on the Channel Four programme "Four Rooms" where I show the jewels to several of Britain's top dealers.
If you are interested in owning some of these historical jewels please contact the well respected London dealer of Asian antiquities and art - John Eskenazi
(email: info@john-eskenazi.com)

I wonder who will buy them and if they will be available for the public to view them? Wouldn't it be better to offer them to a Buddhist institution that would take proper care of them?

:buddha1:
The Piprahwa Jewels

“This relic deposit of the Lord Buddha is the share of this renowned Sakya brethren, his own sister’s children and his own son.”
Translation of the inscription on the Piprahwa reliquary

This website tells the story of how my ancestors became involved in one of the most significant archaeological and religious finds in Buddhist history - the discovery of the Piprahwa Stupa in India, the location of the Buddha's ashes and the beautiful jewels interred with them.
It also endeavours to address the conspiracy theories about the Piprahwa excavation using archaeological and documentary evidence, rational and scientific argument, and the academic opinion of several world leading experts in Indian history and languages.
On the 11th May this year the documentary Bones of the Buddha shown on the National Geographic Channel conclusively showed that the Piprahwa inscription is authentic and could never have been forged.

http://piprahwajewels.co.uk/

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Thu May 16, 2013 8:54 am
by gavesako
Fascinating story of how the Buddha's relics (saririka-dhatu) were discovered at Piprahwa stupa and identified as real, together with an ancient Asokan inscription in Brahmi script:

Bones of the Buddha (National Geographic documentary)
http://youtu.be/Zfxn9lNfiL8

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 4:55 am
by piotr
Hi,

So it seems that recent National Geographic documentary was a 40 min. advertisment of the auction? :twisted:

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 9:24 am
by Kusala
gavesako wrote:Fascinating story of how the Buddha's relics (saririka-dhatu) were discovered at Piprahwa stupa and identified as real, together with an ancient Asokan inscription in Brahmi script:

Bones of the Buddha (National Geographic documentary)
http://youtu.be/Zfxn9lNfiL8
Fascinating indeed! I can't believe these precious jewels date back to the time of Emperor Ashoka. That's over 2000 years old. :o

Image

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 5:40 pm
by gavesako
Some of relics are now at the top of Wat Saket in Bangkok. I think they sometimes take them out to show during Visakha Puja.

Here are also some nice pictures showing the relics discovered in India:

http://chandrashekharasandprints.wordpr ... sy-part-i/
http://chandrashekharasandprints.wordpr ... y-part-ii/
http://chandrashekharasandprints.wordpr ... -part-iii/
http://chandrashekharasandprints.wordpr ... y-part-iv/

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Fri May 17, 2013 7:10 pm
by diptych4
For a different view of these matters from that accorded by the film, see 'The Piprahwa Deceptions' at http://www.piprahwa.org.uk

Bones of the Buddha (New Documentary)

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:29 am
by Benjamin
National Geographic released a documentary recently (5 days ago as far as youtube is concerned) on the tomb of Siddartha Gautama, and I'd recommend giving it a watch. Worth the 50 minutes IMO.




Regards,

Benjamin

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:33 am
by gavesako
The whole story is described at length in this recent volume:

The Buddha and Dr Fuhrer: An Archaeological Scandal
by Charles Allen
Publication Date: 10 Mar 2011
This true account of the scandal that enveloped the discovery in 1898 of an inscribed casket said to contain the ashes of the Buddha, is set against the background of the high noon of the British Raj. In January 1898 a British landowner, William Claxton Peppé, excavated a large Buddhist brick stupa on his estate close to India’s border with Nepal. At a depth of 24 feet he uncovered a huge stone coffer. What made this discovery so important was an inscription found on the top of one of the reliquary caskets - declaring it to contain ashes of the Buddha. This news aroused world-wide interest since no other so well authenticated relics of the Buddha had ever been found. But almost immediately it became known that a German archaeologist, Dr Anton Führer, working nearby at the same time had not only made bogus claims and faked his results but had also been associated with the dig. Führer was quickly unmasked by a British magistrate who himself had a stake in the excavation.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Buddha-Dr-F ... 1906598908

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VAPq ... r_versions

Buddha's Bones

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 1:06 pm
by badscooter
interesting documentary


Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 3:31 pm
by DNS
gavesako wrote:The whole story is described at length in this recent volume:

But almost immediately it became known that a German archaeologist, Dr Anton Führer, working nearby at the same time had not only made bogus claims and faked his results but had also been associated with the dig. Führer was quickly unmasked by a British magistrate who himself had a stake in the excavation.
So it looks like this is a fake too? There probably is little to no hope in finding the real remains.

When I lived in Israel I visited the Old City of Jerusalem often and there were Palestinian and Arab-Israeli vendors selling splinters and pieces of the "true cross" of Jesus to tourists. When they ran out of supply they just went back to the local lumber store.

I have noticed this too with the so-called relics of Buddha, Sariputta, Moggallana, etc. There are so many temples with supposedly bone fragments of the Buddha that if they are real, the Buddha must have been about 1,000 feet tall to produce so many remains.

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 6:41 pm
by Dmytro

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Sun May 19, 2013 8:50 pm
by diptych4
The only possible place for a real relic of the Buddha would be in the middle of the great Asokan stupa at Sanchi, and it's highly unlikely that it will ever be disinterred. As for Srivastava's alleged Piprahwa bone relics of 1973, the question must be asked why, if the existing Piprahwa stupa is Asokan (highly doubtful) bone relics were found at two levels within the same site. The answer that is given in the film - Asokan reinterment of an earlier deposit - is disingenuous, since Asoka is said to have raided the original eight stupas to REMOVE their relics, and he would certainly not have left them in two levels as a result of his action. That wouldn't make sense!

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 4:38 am
by Dmytro
diptych4 wrote: As for Srivastava's alleged Piprahwa bone relics of 1973, the question must be asked why, if the existing Piprahwa stupa is Asokan (highly doubtful) bone relics were found at two levels within the same site. The answer that is given in the film - Asokan reinterment of an earlier deposit - is disingenuous, since Asoka is said to have raided the original eight stupas to REMOVE their relics, and he would certainly not have left them in two levels as a result of his action.
AFAIK, Asoka didn't "raid" the original eight stupas to remove relics.

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/rhy1.htm

Piprahwa stupa shows the reverse process - all kinds of bones believed to be Buddha's relics were collected and interred over the top of original relics.

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 6:20 am
by purple planet
I have noticed this too with the so-called relics of Buddha, Sariputta, Moggallana, etc. There are so many temples with supposedly bone fragments of the Buddha that if they are real, the Buddha must have been about 1,000 feet tall to produce so many remains


lol - thats why it bothered me when in the film they said something like : " the only claimed remains of the buddha"

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Mon May 20, 2013 11:52 am
by diptych4
The showpiece of the film is the sequence where Harry Falk, from Berlin University, examines the 1898 Piprahwa coffer and inscribed urn, and endorses them as genuine Asokan artefacts. In 1991, Falk wrote a piece which examined the Kapilesvar stone slab found in Orissa in 1928, which shows a badly-copied version of the Lumbini pillar inscription. Against all other expert opinion - which decreed it to be an absurd modern fake - Falk solemnly asserted that it was an early pilgrim’s souvenir from the Lumbini site, and dated it to 4th - 8th cent. AD. He now confesses that he was wholly wrong however, and that the slab is, indeed, a risible modern forgery. For the details, see his ‘Asokan Sites and Artefacts’ (2006) p.292.

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:39 pm
by diptych4
‘The great tragedy of Science : the slaying of a beautiful theory by an ugly fact’ (T. H. Huxley). The ugly fact here is that before Peppe officially announced his Piprahwa claims in 1898, he had been in touch with the notorious forger and cheat Dr Fuhrer who was excavating nearby. Fuhrer had then been selling phony Buddha-relics to a Burmese monk, U Ma, and a year BEFORE Peppe’s claim, Fuhrer had sent U Ma spurious bone relics of the Buddha which he claimed were those presented to the Sakyas of Kapilavastu after the Buddha’s cremation, these being placed in a soapstone casket with an ‘ancient inscription’. Since all of these details are, of course, exactly identical with those made for Peppe’s claim - supposedly unique - it is surely safe to conclude that the former scam was merely a dry run for the latter.

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 2:44 pm
by gavesako

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:03 pm
by DrG
Dear all commenting on this subject,

Just thought I would add a few informed comments about the Piprahwa find and evidence supporting its authenticity.

I was asked as an academic to critically review the evidence of those arguing that the Piprahwa find is a fake conducted by Dr Fuhrer.

I found no evidence at all suggesting Dr Fuhrer and Mr Peppe's grandfather colluded in forging the Piprahwa find or any evidence of Dr Fuhrer having any actual physical involvement in the excavation.

Indeed, the timing and logistics of any possible forgery would have been impossible by one man, while the historical documentary evidence clearly shows no connection between the two men other than after the find when Mr Peppe had to tell the authorities by law of the find and Dr Fuhrer - who was the regional archaeological expert.

Dr Fuhrer also had no motivation to forge the Piprahwa find since he was neither at the centre of the Piprahwa excavation (surely he would have made sure of this to get the fame if he was supposed to know about this career changing and momentous historical find), nor did he benefit financially from it like his other forgeries. In fact, Peppe never received any financial reward either for the excavation; the only reward he got was from the King of Siam who gave him a stamp album and gilt-silver salver - hardly a King's ransom. And the family retained (with the Indian government's permission) just a small collection of the jewels with majority of the relics including the coffer and reliquary vases going to the Indian government and other Buddhist countries.

The documentary on the National Geographic channel also gave evidence to the fact that Dr Fuhrer could not have forged the inscription since he didn't have the right linguistic knowledge and indeed would never have known a particular word used in that inscription. In fact two other world experts on Indian history and languages are of the same opinion the inscription is genuine.

It is also worth noting that the book by Charles Allen and this documentary were created independently of the Peppe family and in no way funded by them - a false and cynical rumour that appears on some other forums. Indeed, Mr Peppe is not in any financial position to fund such extensive research and documentaries and is only selling most of the families collection because, like many older people, the money will help stretch a limited pension. But for the conspiracy theorists they will always make two plus two equal five, like they do with the original find.

I would suggest that those who remain doubtful carefully read the section "Controversy and Truth" on Mr Peppe's website. This clearly shows that the arguments used by those who think the Piprahwa find is forged are seriously flawed and like all conspiracy theories they sound convincing until critically challenged using evidence and rational argument.

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:09 pm
by gavesako
Today, the eighth day of the waning moon in the sixth lunar month, is Aṭṭhamī Pūjā, commemorating the day of the Buddha’s cremation.

http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/E ... bution.htm

Re: Buddha's Bones and Piprahwa Jewels - auction?

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:54 am
by diptych4
It should be noted that despite the attempt of Rhys Davids (JRAS, 1901) to discredit the well-known story of Asoka rifling the original eight stupas to disperse their Buddha-relics in stupas throughout India, this story would nevertheless appear to gain full support from the accounts of the two early Chinese pilgrims, Faxian and Xuanzang, whose accounts remain the only reliable ones we have on ancient Indian Buddhist sites. Neither pilgrim makes any mention of visiting ANY of these original eight stupas save that of Ramagrama, which the king is said to have spared. Both pilgrims appear to have stayed for some time at the Kapilavastu site however, and both mention visiting many places associated with the Buddha’s presence there (the palace remains, etc) together with similar associated sites to up a distance of six miles around the town itself. Yet neither pilgrim makes the slightest mention of seeing any Sakyan stupa containing the Buddha’s relics at Kapilavastu - which would undoubtedly have been a major feature at the site - a fact which further supports the story of Asoka’s destructive raid on the stupa there. From this, it seems evident enough that this original Sakyan stupa no longer existed in the place, otherwise they would most certainly have seen it and mentioned it in their accounts. Yet despite this glaring absence, the Piprahwa stupa is alleged not only to be this stupa, but also to have yielded TWO sets of deposits of the Buddha’s remains, one supposedly in an Asokan urn! Given the evidences cited above, this claim would thus appear to be, as Alice said of Wonderland, ‘curiouser, and curiouser’ the more we look at it.