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Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:42 pm
by Gena1480
does Ajahn Brahm consent his actions with the Sangha
or he makes decision himself?

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:52 pm
by mikenz66
Can someone explain exactly what their objection to this is? Does it contravene some obscure rule in the Vinaya?

I don't see any logical difference from any Dhamma presentation, where teachings and dana is given freely, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.

:anjali:
Mike

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:57 pm
by LonesomeYogurt
According to AN 5.177, the selling of human beings is wrong livelihood!

:jumping:

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:57 pm
by mikenz66
"May Master Gotama, together with the community of monks, acquiesce to my offer of tomorrow's meal."

The Blessed One acquiesced with silence.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
Mike

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:02 pm
by Cittasanto
mikenz66 wrote:Can someone explain exactly what their objection to this is? Does it contravene some obscure rule in the Vinaya?

I don't see any logical difference from any Dhamma presentation, where teachings and dana is given freely, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.

:anjali:
Mike
nothing obscure, and can be found easily.
SN 42.10 Maniculaka Sutta: To Maniculaka wrote:"Now I do say that thatch may be sought for by one needing thatch, wood may be sought for by one needing wood, a cart may be sought for by one needing a cart, a workman may be sought for by one needing a workman, but by no means do I say that money may be consented to or sought for in any way at all."
Nissaggiya Pācittiya: Rules entailing forfeiture and confession wrote:18. Should any bhikkhu accept gold and silver, or have it accepted, or consent to its being deposited (near him), it is to be forfeited and confessed.

19. Should any bhikkhu engage in various types of monetary exchange, it (the income) is to be forfeited and confessed.

20. Should any bhikkhu engage in various types of trade, it (the article obtained) is to be forfeited and confessed.
he is trading himself for money to build.

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:06 pm
by tiltbillings
Cittasanto wrote: he is trading himself for money to build.
Does he benefit from this, does he line his pockets, get a big fancy car, better food, silk robes, a nicer place to live?

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:15 pm
by Mr Man
mikenz66 wrote:Can someone explain exactly what their objection to this is? Does it contravene some obscure rule in the Vinaya?

I don't see any logical difference from any Dhamma presentation, where teachings and dana is given freely, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.
Hi Mike
My objection is that it degrades the symbolism of the mendicant. I also think it trivializes and is overly out of step with the tradition.

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:23 pm
by Cittasanto
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: he is trading himself for money to build.
Does he benefit from this, does he line his pockets, get a big fancy car, better food, silk robes, a nicer place to live?
I will point you too the first quote.
it does not matter if he is benefitting in that way. he is allowing and being part of making himself a commodity in trade that is inappropriate.
Ud3.8 pinda sutta wrote:The monk going for alms,
supporting himself and no other:
The devas adore one who is Such
if he's not intent
on fame & praise.
DN2 wrote:"So after some time he abandons his mass of wealth, large or small; leaves his circle of relatives, large or small; shaves off his hair and beard, puts on the ochre robes, and goes forth from the household life into homelessness. Having thus gone forth he lives restrained in body, speech, and mind, content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude. Then suppose one of your men were to inform you: 'You should know, your majesty, that that man of yours — the farmer, the householder, the taxpayer swelling the royal treasury... has gone forth from the household life into homelessness... content with the simplest food and shelter, delighting in solitude.' Would you, thus informed, say, 'Bring that man back to me. Make him again be a farmer, a householder, a taxpayer swelling the royal treasury!'?"

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:25 pm
by tiltbillings
Cittasanto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Cittasanto wrote: he is trading himself for money to build.
Does he benefit from this, does he line his pockets, get a big fancy car, better food, silk robes, a nicer place to live?
I will point you too the first quote.
it does not matter if he is benefitting in that way. he is allowing and being part of making himself a commodity in trade that is inappropriate.
Naughty Ajahn Brahm. Literalist Cittasanto.

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:30 pm
by Bhikkhu Pesala

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:15 pm
by manas
Sorry, on second thoughts, I thought it best to extinguish this post...this topic is a bit of a minefield, I will leave it to others more learned than I to comment

metta

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:26 pm
by marc108
Are we all Vinaya experts? Has Ajahn Brahm broken any rules? Didn't Ajahm Brahm do the first make English translation of the Vinaya? My personal opinion is that he's likely done this because te nunnery is hurting for funds, and its not like hes taking the money or himself or his own monastery. Ajahn Brahm works tirelessly and gives of himself with complete generosity... He's done more to further the Dhamma than any of us could ever hope to. Not to mention he is a senior monk of 40 years. We may not personally like the 'auction' but to criticize him or cast sweeping judgements when none of us know the circumstances is IMO, unwise. 'Nit-picking' at its worst.

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:27 pm
by tiltbillings
marc108 wrote:Are we all Vinaya experts? Has Ajahn Brahm broken any rules? Didn't Ajahm Brahm do the first make English translation of the Vinaya? My personal opinion is that he's likely done this because te nunnery is hurtingl for funds. Ajahn Brahm works tirelessly and gives of himself with complete generosity... He's done more to further the Dhamma than any of us could ever hope to. Not to mention he is a senior monk of 40 years. We may not personally like the 'auction' but to criticize him or cast sweeping judgements when none of us know the circumstances is IMO, unwise. 'Nit-picking' at its worst.
Indeed.

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:31 pm
by Gena1480
who am i to judge someone else actions
i'm not the owner of his actions
i'm the owner of my actions.

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:36 pm
by Dan74
I thought this was quite common practice anyway, in that monks would spend time with the largest benefactors.

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:38 pm
by Mr Man
marc108 wrote:Are we all Vinaya experts? Has Ajahn Brahm broken any rules? Didn't Ajahm Brahm do the first make English translation of the Vinaya? My personal opinion is that he's likely done this because te nunnery is hurting for funds, and its not like hes taking the money or himself or his own monastery. Ajahn Brahm works tirelessly and gives of himself with complete generosity... He's done more to further the Dhamma than any of us could ever hope to.
In my opinion that is all totally irrelevant and sounds awfully like righteous indignation. Maybe he has made a bad decision or been badly advised? Who knows?

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:41 pm
by santa100
Of course we don't doubt Ven. Brahm's good intention. But shouldn't it be more appropriate to let the lay staff handle this matter? If he does this, it'll open up some awkward situations, for example some poor folks who's deserved to see the venerable more but they aren't able to because they lost the "bidding war" to their neighbor who has a lot more money. The rich folks could easily win the "auction" and thus win the venerable's time thru the size of their pocket, not their virtue. Worst of, they might not even need the venerable there at their home for they might only care about a good story of having a world renowned teacher actually staying at their home! It wouldn't seem fair to the poorer folks..

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:04 pm
by tiltbillings
santa100 wrote:Of course we don't doubt Ven. Brahm's good intention. But shouldn't it be more appropriate to let the lay staff handle this matter? If he does this, it'll open up some awkward situations, for example some poor folks who's deserved to see the venerable more but they aren't able to because they lost the "bidding war" to their neighbor who has a lot more money. The rich folks could easily win the "auction" and thus win the venerable's time thru the size of their pocket, not their virtue. Worst of, they might not even need the venerable there at their home for they might only care about a good story of having a world renowned teacher actually staying at their home! It wouldn't seem fair to the poorer folks..
What if Ven B goes to England to lead a month long retreat? All those poor people in Oz are left in the lurch for over a month.

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:07 pm
by santa100
At least they know they couldn't see him not because they lost the bidding war to some rich folks..

Re: Ajahn Brahm for sale?

Posted: Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:09 pm
by tiltbillings
santa100 wrote:At least they know they couldn't see him not because they lost the bidding war to some rich folks..
Well, then they have something of interest inside themselves to consider.