By the way I am so glad that there are lot of Chekers in this forum. It comforts me.

I got it from:
P385 of:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... gsurw6.pdf
What would you say about these people who said they have OBE.....they can see their body on a bed but without eyes.....they are conscious/aware that they see their body.....they might be able to hear but without ears.....otherwise, the OBE experience cannot be told, unless there is no such a thing as an OBE, it is all made up?pegembara wrote:There is no consciousness independent of the 6 senses. http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Good point. But the trouble I imagine is proving that even that state is fully independent from the body. It would make sense if it was in a way, as the experience often occurs when individuals are pronounced clinically dead. If that is the case, then that OBE consciousness would still have karma and would be subject to rebirth, so I guess it wouldn't be applicable to parinibbana. Nevertheless, interesting.equilibrium wrote:What would you say about these people who said they have OBE.....they can see their body on a bed but without eyes.....they are conscious/aware that they see their body.....they might be able to hear but without ears.....otherwise, the OBE experience cannot be told, unless there is no such a thing as an OBE, it is all made up?pegembara wrote:There is no consciousness independent of the 6 senses. http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If it is true, then that whatever it is, consciousness/awareness is indeed independent of the senses.....what do you guys think?
He does seem a bit uneasy on this position. He holds it but then he says it should be put aside, so I'm not really sure why he talks about it in the first place but there you go, he does.Viññanam anidassanam. This term is nowhere explained in the Canon, although MN 49 mentions that it "does not partake in the allness of the All" — the "All" meaning the six internal and six external sense media (see SN 35.23). In this it differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate, which covers all consciousness near and far; past, present, and future. However, the fact that it is outside of time and space — in a dimension where there is no here, there, or in between (Ud 1.10), no coming, no going, or staying (Ud 8.1) — means that it cannot be described as permanent or omnipresent, terms that have meaning only within space and time. The standard description of nibbana after death is, "All that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here." (See MN 140 and Iti 44.) Again, as "all" is defined as the sense media, this raises the question as to whether consciousness without feature is not covered by this "all." However, AN 4.174 warns that any speculation as to whether anything does or doesn't remain after the remainderless stopping of the six sense media is to "objectify non-objectification," which gets in the way of attaining the non-objectified. Thus this is a question that is best put aside.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Along the lines of m0rl0ck's reference to Huang Po, there is this other quotation from THE ZEN TEACHING OF HUANG PO (page 40, soft cover edition) to contemplate:m0rl0ck wrote:This is a common notion in many religions and schools of buddhism. I seem to remember references to this in some of the thai forest stuff i have read, but the best exposition of it that i have read is in "the zen teachings of huang po":
(EDIT: found a better example:)This Mind is neither large nor small; it is located neither within nor without. It should not be thought about by the mind nor be discussed by the mouth. Ordinarily, it is said that we use the Mind to transmit the Mind, or that we use the Mind to seal the Mind. Actually, however, in transmitting the Mind, there is really no Mind to receive or obtain; and in sealing the Mind, there is really no Mind to seal. If this is the case, then does the Mind exist or does it not exist? Actually, it cannot be said with certainty that the Mind either exists or does not exist, for it is Absolute Reality. This is expressed in the Ch'an Sect by the maxim: "If you open your mouth, you are wrong. If you give rise to a single thought, you are in error." So, if you can quiet your thinking totally, all that remains is voidness and stillness.
This seems awfully close (if not right on) to the sense of the meaning of viññanam anidassanam as "consciousness without surface" or "consciousness without feature" without the reification or objectification of consciousness."It is only to be feared that you students of the Way, by the coming into existence of a single thought, may raise a barrier between yourselves and the Way. From thought-instant to thought-instant, no form; from thought-instant to thought instant, no ACTIVITY—that is to be a Buddha! If you students of the way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything. Where nothing is sought this implies Mind unborn; where no attachment exists, this implies Mind not destroyed; and that which is neither born nor destroyed is the Buddha."
"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen."
Hi Equilibrium,equilibrium wrote:What would you say about these people who said they have OBE.....they can see their body on a bed but without eyes.....they are conscious/aware that they see their body.....they might be able to hear but without ears.....otherwise, the OBE experience cannot be told, unless there is no such a thing as an OBE, it is all made up?pegembara wrote:There is no consciousness independent of the 6 senses. http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If it is true, then that whatever it is, consciousness/awareness is indeed independent of the senses.....what do you guys think?
Hi Equilibriumequilibrium wrote:What would you say about these people who said they have OBE.....they can see their body on a bed but without eyes.....they are conscious/aware that they see their body.....they might be able to hear but without ears.....otherwise, the OBE experience cannot be told, unless there is no such a thing as an OBE, it is all made up?pegembara wrote:There is no consciousness independent of the 6 senses. http://www.leighb.com/mn38.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If it is true, then that whatever it is, consciousness/awareness is indeed independent of the senses.....what do you guys think?
The Buddha did not reject the idea of a self. He did, however, remain quiet when asked whether the self was existent or was nonexistent. So it appears that the designation of a self either as "existing" or "non-existing" is mistaken. To fall into the view that "there is no self" is part of the tangle of views.pegembara wrote:First of all, extinguishment (nibbāna) is clearly not annihilation. The reason for this is simply that there is nothing to be annihilated. Only existing entities can be annihilated, and since Buddhism rejects the idea of a self, annihilation is by definition impossible. Processes, on the other hand, may come to an end. Since humans are processes, they can cease. What is it that ceases? Just suffering.
http://community.dhammaloka.org.au/show ... 9-38-DN-11" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ is a reference to the nature of the released consciousness of an arahant. It does not reflect anything.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 47#p184136" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]
"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.
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