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Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:15 am
by tiltbillings
pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, however, that you still have not effectively countered Ven Bodhi's educated demurral, or the other sutta statements that do not support your position.
Apart from his brief comment in his footnote I have never seen anything written by Ven. Bodhi supporting his reasons for departing from this fundamentally important aspect of the tradition.
The brief comment and the suttas texts themselves make a decent case. It would seem that otherwise if yoniso manasikara is only experienced by an ariya, you are left with the problem of being ariya arising from ayoniso manasikara. As i said, and as the suttas I quoted, I do not find your position compelling. By extension, your position would require than there is no jhana, no insights, no sila, right view, no right anything expect for the ariya, and you are left with the question of how one goes from being a worldling to being an ariya.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:00 am
by Dhammanando
Pulga: I don't see how that contradicts what I've written. On the contrary, it only affirms that attending to the khandhá in the proper way in accordance with the tilakkhana marks the transition from puthujjana to ariyan.

Dave: It is possible, but not instantaneous...
More to the point, the phrase “ṭhānaṃ etaṃ vijjati ... sacchikareyya” (“it is possible ... he would realize.” More literally: “...this situation is to be found ... he may realize...”) would seem to contradict Pulga by indicating that stream-entry attainment is possible for such a person but not inevitable.

If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:04 am
by tiltbillings
Dhammanando wrote: . . .
Thank you, bhante.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:18 am
by Dhammanando
pulga wrote:This accords -- more or less -- with the traditional interpretation, cf. the MA to Sabbásavasutta where yoniso manasikara is identified with sotapattimagga,
The commentary to this sutta defines the term twice, once giving the stock commentarial definition (the paragraph beginning: "tattha _yoniso manasikāro_ nāma upāyamanasikāro...") and once a context-specific one (notice the limiting adverb "ettha", "here"). It is only in the latter that sotāpattimagga is alluded to. In the general definition there's no limiting of yoniso mansikāra to ariyans.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:19 am
by pulga
Dhammanando wrote: More to the point, the phrase “ṭhānaṃ etaṃ vijjati ... sacchikareyya” (“it is possible ... he would realize.” More literally: “...this situation is to be found ... he may realize...”) would seem to contradict Pulga by indicating that stream-entry attainment is possible for such a person but not inevitable.

If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana.
Thank you for your input, Bhante. I find the Sutta problematical to the extent that it doesn't identify the silavata bhikkhu as being a puthujjana, and that it is exhorting him to practice yoniso manasikara for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry, not of the path. It reads as if the path has already been attained, that the silavata bhikkhu sees pancakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta, and is capable of attending to them accordingly. So I'm not really sure what level of attainment is implied. The commentary has nothing to say either way.

"Silavata bhikkhu" is a very uncommon designation in the Suttas. Might it be that given his ability to attend to the pancakkhandhá saccanulomika (to use the commentarial expression) as anicca, dukkha, and anatta, that the sutta may be referring to either a saddhanusari or to a dhammanusari, or both -- neither of whom should be regarded as puthujjanas?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:38 am
by pulga
Dhammanando wrote: The commentary to this sutta defines the term twice, once giving the stock commentarial definition (the paragraph beginning: "tattha _yoniso manasikāro_ nāma upāyamanasikāro...") and once a context-specific one (notice the limiting adverb "ettha", "here"). It is only in the latter that sotāpattimagga is alluded to. In the general definition there's no limiting of yoniso mansikāra to ariyans.
Thank you once again, Bhante. The general definition does however bring in the notion of saccānulomika in defining yoniso manasikara.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:12 am
by tiltbillings
pulga wrote: It reads as if the path has already been attained, that the silavata bhikkhu sees pancakkhanda as anicca, dukkha, and anatta, and is capable of attending to them accordingly. . .
No, it does not, not in the Ven Bodhi translation, CDB 970-1: "A virtuous bhikkhushould carefully attend to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent . . . as non-self. When , friend, a virtuous bhikkhu carefully attends to these five aggregates subject to clinging, it is possible that he may realize the fruit of stream-entry. But, friend Sariputta, what are the things that a bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should carefully attend to?" The distinction is made here between one who ariya and who is not, but who might become so based upon the careful attention employed. But there is no guarantee that any particuar incident of the practice of yoniso manasikara would necessarily lead to ariya status.

Let me as you a question here: Was the bodhisatta ariya before his awakening?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:07 pm
by pulga
Dhammanando wrote: If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana.
Or it may imply that through the very act of yoniso manasikara and the accompanying penetration through understanding the path is attained, thus making it possible for the fruit to be realized. This might explain the silence in the Sutta as to whether the silavata bhikkhu is to be regarded as puthujjana or ariyan.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:05 pm
by tiltbillings
pulga wrote:
Dhammanando wrote: If it is merely a possibility that one attending appropriately may realize the fruit of stream-entry, then there is also a possibility that he may not. And all those who do not would count as instances of puthujjanas possessed of yoniso manasikāra. Hence yoniso manasikāra may be present in a puthujjana.
Or it may imply that through the very act of yoniso manasikara and the accompanying penetration through understanding the path is attained, thus making it possible for the fruit to be realized. This might explain the silence in the Sutta as to whether the silavata bhikkhu is to be regarded as puthujjana or ariyan.
The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:43 pm
by pulga
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.
I think the crux of the matter is whether a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. I say he can't, that the tilakkhana is beyond his ken.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:30 pm
by robertk
pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.
I think the crux of the matter is whether a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. I say he can't, that the tilakkhana is beyond his ken.
there are two type of putthujjana. the fully ignorant one and the one who is beginning to study and see the way, who is starting to understand the agggregates , the ayatanas, conditionality. this latter one may eventually discern nama and rupa and subsequently the tilakkhana.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:13 pm
by pulga
robertk wrote:there are two type of putthujjana. the fully ignorant one and the one who is beginning to study and see the way, who is starting to understand the agggregates , the ayatanas, conditionality. this latter one may eventually discern nama and rupa and subsequently the tilakkhana.
I take it your cat is a fully ignorant one.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:58 pm
by tiltbillings
pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem is, as we have seen, the particulat text in question is not saying what you are suggesting it is saying.
I think the crux of the matter is whether a puthujjana can properly attend to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta. I say he can't, that the tilakkhana is beyond his ken.
It depends upon what you mean by "properly attend[ing] to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta." Obviously one can have yoniso manasikara, but not yet attain to ariya status.

Again, the question: Was the bodhisatta ariya befor his awakening?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:45 pm
by pulga
tiltbillings wrote:Again, the question: Was the bodhisatta ariya befor his awakening?
We've already discussed the Vipassísutta. As I said, I'm inclined to follow the tradition in interpreting yoniso manasikara when used as such.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:51 pm
by tiltbillings
pulga wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Again, the question: Was the bodhisatta ariya befor his awakening?
We've already discussed the Vipassísutta. As I said, I'm inclined to follow the tradition in interpreting yoniso manasikara when used as such.
You are not answering the question, which is relevant to the issue of yoniso manasikara. And as for the "tradition," we have seen, via Ven Dhammanando's discussion of what the commentaries say, that your intial take on what was said was wrong.

And you have not addressed this point: "It depends upon what you mean by "properly attend[ing] to the pancupadanakkhandha as anicca, dukkha, and anatta." Obviously one can have yoniso manasikara, but not yet attain to ariya status," as the sutta quoted above clearly shows.