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Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:50 am
by robertk
Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:Not sure of your question. Could you explain a bit more
Well one is a belief that you hold and one is a belief that a taxi drive holds.
They are both a product of the same function.
Sorry! I forgot about the cat in nepal thatmy taxi driver thought was an inauspicious omen.
Ok I see your question now.
I would say his belief is conditioned by micchadithhi, wrong view.
I think my comments weren't associated with wrong view but I am open to correction?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:16 pm
by Mr Man
robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:Not sure of your question. Could you explain a bit more
Well one is a belief that you hold and one is a belief that a taxi drive holds.
They are both a product of the same function.
Sorry! I forgot about the cat in nepal thatmy taxi driver thought was an inauspicious omen.
Ok I see your question now.
I would say his belief is conditioned by micchadithhi, wrong view.
I think my comments weren't associated with wrong view but I am open to correction?
But who could correct you robertk? You can only correct yourself and you not in the position to do that.

You can only be where you are. Sometimes we act with micchadithhi and some times we act with silabataparamasa but that doesn't me we should not act.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:34 pm
by robertk
It is like this, without hearing true Dhamma therecis no possibility of developong the right view leading to vipassana. Yet some people hear Dhamma and it means nothing to them or they misinterpret it.
For some it all makes sense and they see how life and every moment is just like the explanation s in the tipitaka amd commentaries. So they study more and gradually pariyatti turns into pattipati in the sense that that the nature of reality becomes clearer as it arises.

Why are some like this and some like that?
There is a factor called pubekkata punnata, the meritorious accumulated understanding and good deeds from the beginnless past..


So the Dhamma is the teacher, fortunately it is still preserved thanks to the great monks of the past. That is where guidance and correction lie.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:57 pm
by Mr Man
The trouble is it is all coming through you and (I imagine) that there is nothing that you can do to change this. This is our life, our tool. Sometimes by rejecting somthing we actually reinforce it (I'm thinking of silabataparamasa ).

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:27 pm
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:It is like this, without hearing true Dhamma
How do you know it is "true Dhamma" that you are hearing? And I would guess that there is non-"true Dhamma," which is what us meditators are hearing.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:43 pm
by robertk
Saddhdhamma, true Dhamma is a frequentvterm in the tipitika to refer to the Buddhas teaching.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:57 pm
by beeblebrox
Mr Man wrote:What I find most interesting about robertk's practice is that it seems to be essentially faith based.
Hi Mr Man,

Thanks for bringing this up... one of the hindrances to the practice is actually doubt.

If the person doesn't trust the wisdom, or rather, the way that it is being apprehended (which in fact is the only way that we would encounter someone's wisdom), then he's not going to do the practice. It's one of the big hindrances.

:anjali:

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:20 pm
by Dinsdale
robertk wrote:You mean we quasi sokka gakkai :tongue:
So do you just work on panna, and leave aside sila and samadhi?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:43 pm
by robertk
When there is panna, for those brief moments one is free of illwill, lust and any harmful.factors. there is also samadhi at that time

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:43 pm
by Mr Man
beeblebrox wrote:
Mr Man wrote:What I find most interesting about robertk's practice is that it seems to be essentially faith based.
Hi Mr Man,

Thanks for bringing this up... one of the hindrances to the practice is actually doubt.

If the person doesn't trust the wisdom, or rather, the way that it is being apprehended (which in fact is the only way that we would encounter someone's wisdom), then he's not going to do the practice. It's one of the big hindrances.

:anjali:
Hi beeblebrox,
And interestingly it falls away at stream entry. So up till then it is there?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:23 pm
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:Saddhdhamma, true Dhamma is a frequentvterm in the tipitika to refer to the Buddhas teaching.
But that does not answer the question and point raised: How do you know it is "true Dhamma" that you are hearing? And I would guess that there is non-"true Dhamma," which is what us meditators are hearing.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:35 pm
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:
So do you just work on panna, and leave aside sila and samadhi?
When there is panna, for those brief moments one is free of illwill, lust and any harmful.factors. there is also samadhi at that time
So, in other words, what I am getting out of this is that one really does not need to worry about sila at all; one just has to make sure that one is listening to the "true Dhamma," and the "true Dhamma" really does not include any admonitions to actively cultivate sila or to actively cultivate concentration and mindfulness. By listening to the "true Dhamma" only, everything -- sila, insight, concentration -- happens because the listening to the "true Dhamma" alone is what sets up the conditions for those things to arise. Anything else is not "true Dhamma."

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:45 pm
by Kenshou
Would it be rude to say, without implicating any specific individuals, that this Sujin approach seems suspiciously and conveniently well crafted to allow a dhamma that allows one to not actually put in any real effort or do any real practice. Beyond I suppose, study and sila at most, as far as I can tell.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 1:26 am
by tiltbillings
Kenshou wrote:Would it be rude to say, without implicating any specific individuals, that this Sujin approach seems suspiciously and conveniently well crafted to allow a dhamma that allows one to not actually put in any real effort or do any real practice. Beyond I suppose, study and sila at most, as far as I can tell.
Unquestionably, it is unusual. While it may be a way of practice, the problem I have with what is being presented by the Sujin followers in this thread is what looks to be the unqualified rejection of any other way of practice as being actually efficacious or legitimate or taught by the Buddha.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:15 am
by Virgo