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Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:47 am
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:In essence Sam I think wisdom will condition sila . But it is a long process, remember even the sotapanna still has wives and children : but they don't drink alcohol or steal or cheat or take other men's wives.
And they could never dream of killing a cockroach or flea say .

I read of even a monk, who is under vinaya : which is very different life from householders, who brought in pest exterminators to get rid of a flea infestation. He had been a monk for years but it shows that we could keep strict sila but without sufficient wisdom under certain circumstances break it.
So, until we are sotapanna there is no real point in practicing sila, for that would be naught more than clinging to sīlabbata-parāmāsa? And actively trying to cultivate sila, like bhāvanā it would seem, has no more significance that choosing one sandwich shop over another as far as Dhamma practice is concerned? Your above comment suggests as much. Please clarify.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:03 am
by robertk

Robert, sharing one's practice is always a little bit tricky, but broadly speaking how do people in your tradition/lineage practice?

I gather there is study and contemplation of the teachings in the course of everyday life and this leads to wisdom. Could you correct/elaborate on that please?
You mean we quasi sokka gakkai :tongue:

No rules in this regard. I know a close friend of Sujins who is around her almost daily who wears partly white, and keeps eight precepts, who does nothing almost except things related to study and propagation of Dhamma. Or many monks go to listen and discuss in Bangkok.
Or someone like Nina van Gordon who devotes her life to writing brilliant books on Dhamma, whose idea of taking a break is switching on the radio (when she is in Bangkok,or mp3 when in holland)and listening to a few hours of recordings about the links in patticasamupada , in Thai language!

Then there are people like me who read Dhamma books from time to time, and who enjoy Dhamma discussions occasionally. Yet who spend more time in coffee shops, at work, with family , living a very mundane life, than they do in outright Dhamma situations. And I think truth of what theBuddha taught seems to reveal itself often in any situation..

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:06 am
by Mr Man
What I find most interesting about robertk's practice is that it seems to be essentially faith based.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:14 am
by Dan74
robertk wrote:

Robert, sharing one's practice is always a little bit tricky, but broadly speaking how do people in your tradition/lineage practice?

I gather there is study and contemplation of the teachings in the course of everyday life and this leads to wisdom. Could you correct/elaborate on that please?
You mean we quasi sokka gakkai :tongue:

No rules in this regard. I know a close friend of Sujins who is around her almost daily who wears white, and keeps eight precepts, who does nothing almost except things related to study and propagation of Dhamma. Or many monks go to listen and discuss in Bangkok.
Or someone like Nina van Gordon who devotes her life to writing brilliant books on Dhamma, whose idea of taking a break is switching on the radio (when she is in Bangkok,or mp3 when in holland)and listening to a few hours of recordings about the links in patticasamupada , in Thai language!

Then there are people like me who read Dhamma books from time to time, and who enjoy Dhamma discussions occasionally. Yet who spend more time in coffee shops, at work, with family , living a very mundane life, than they do in outright Dhamma situations. And I think truth of what theBuddha taught seems to reveal itself often in any situation..
Thanks, Robert!

Personally I don't find it a good idea to have a deep divide between "Dhamma activity" and "mundane activity". But as a matter of practicality it was only after some years and a few dozen retreats that I realized that the mundane can be practice and practice is also sometimes very mundane!

As for "And I think truth of what theBuddha taught seems to reveal itself often in any situation.." I couldn't agree more.
Mr Man wrote:What I find most interesting about robertk's practice is that it seems to be essentially faith based.
My main problem with this approach to practice is that it seems to be very light.

I mean we are all experts in samsara and dedicate a great deal of energy to its propagation. The momentum of samsara, ie the mental patterns that keep it going is very strong. It seems to me that to reverse this momentum takes quite a bit of effort usually, whether we look at the Buddha or other great masters, it doesn't usually come easy.

So pouring energy into Dhamma practice is a commitment to going upstream from samsara and with informal practice like Robert describes, I don't see how this could happen. At least not without some amazing cultivation in past lifetimes.

PS. I confess that dispensing with meditation is also strange to me and I can't quite fathom how the teachings can really penetrate without mental cultivation that happens in meditation. But on the other hand, there are different Dhamma doors and I don't doubt that one can go a long way without formal meditation practice as we normally think of it.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:55 am
by gendun
Dan74.
Many Dzogchen students have a well established practice of formal meditation before they encounter Dzogchen..but many don't.
And the latter may well have no practice that corresponds to formal vipassana, samatha, or Zazen.

In a sense it is based on Grace.

Just for interest.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:03 am
by tiltbillings
gendun wrote:
In a sense it is based on Grace.
Grace: unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:31 am
by Mr Man
Hi robertk
What would be the difference between "remember even the sotapanna still has wives and children : but they don't drink alcohol or steal or cheat or take other men's wives." and " did you see the cat sir"? http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 80#p228685

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:58 am
by robertk
Not sure of your question. Could you explain a bit more

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:18 am
by Mr Man
robertk wrote:Not sure of your question. Could you explain a bit more
Well one is a belief that you hold and one is a belief that a taxi drive holds.
They are both a product of the same function.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:35 am
by gendun
tiltbillings wrote:
gendun wrote:
In a sense it is based on Grace.
Grace: unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification
In this instance the definition needs to be widened in include the Grace that the Guru brings that moves us towards liberation.
Which in Dzogchen ( or in Mahamudra ) results in resting in Primordial Awareness.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:50 am
by robertk
Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:Not sure of your question. Could you explain a bit more
Well one is a belief that you hold and one is a belief that a taxi drive holds.
They are both a product of the same function.
Sorry! I forgot about the cat in nepal thatmy taxi driver thought was an inauspicious omen.
Ok I see your question now.
I would say his belief is conditioned by micchadithhi, wrong view.
I think my comments weren't associated with wrong view but I am open to correction?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:16 pm
by Mr Man
robertk wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
robertk wrote:Not sure of your question. Could you explain a bit more
Well one is a belief that you hold and one is a belief that a taxi drive holds.
They are both a product of the same function.
Sorry! I forgot about the cat in nepal thatmy taxi driver thought was an inauspicious omen.
Ok I see your question now.
I would say his belief is conditioned by micchadithhi, wrong view.
I think my comments weren't associated with wrong view but I am open to correction?
But who could correct you robertk? You can only correct yourself and you not in the position to do that.

You can only be where you are. Sometimes we act with micchadithhi and some times we act with silabataparamasa but that doesn't me we should not act.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:34 pm
by robertk
It is like this, without hearing true Dhamma therecis no possibility of developong the right view leading to vipassana. Yet some people hear Dhamma and it means nothing to them or they misinterpret it.
For some it all makes sense and they see how life and every moment is just like the explanation s in the tipitaka amd commentaries. So they study more and gradually pariyatti turns into pattipati in the sense that that the nature of reality becomes clearer as it arises.

Why are some like this and some like that?
There is a factor called pubekkata punnata, the meritorious accumulated understanding and good deeds from the beginnless past..


So the Dhamma is the teacher, fortunately it is still preserved thanks to the great monks of the past. That is where guidance and correction lie.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:57 pm
by Mr Man
The trouble is it is all coming through you and (I imagine) that there is nothing that you can do to change this. This is our life, our tool. Sometimes by rejecting somthing we actually reinforce it (I'm thinking of silabataparamasa ).

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:27 pm
by tiltbillings
robertk wrote:It is like this, without hearing true Dhamma
How do you know it is "true Dhamma" that you are hearing? And I would guess that there is non-"true Dhamma," which is what us meditators are hearing.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:43 pm
by robertk
Saddhdhamma, true Dhamma is a frequentvterm in the tipitika to refer to the Buddhas teaching.

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:57 pm
by beeblebrox
Mr Man wrote:What I find most interesting about robertk's practice is that it seems to be essentially faith based.
Hi Mr Man,

Thanks for bringing this up... one of the hindrances to the practice is actually doubt.

If the person doesn't trust the wisdom, or rather, the way that it is being apprehended (which in fact is the only way that we would encounter someone's wisdom), then he's not going to do the practice. It's one of the big hindrances.

:anjali:

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:20 pm
by Spiny Norman
robertk wrote:You mean we quasi sokka gakkai :tongue:
So do you just work on panna, and leave aside sila and samadhi?

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:43 pm
by robertk
When there is panna, for those brief moments one is free of illwill, lust and any harmful.factors. there is also samadhi at that time

Re: The causes for wisdom

Posted: Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:43 pm
by Mr Man
beeblebrox wrote:
Mr Man wrote:What I find most interesting about robertk's practice is that it seems to be essentially faith based.
Hi Mr Man,

Thanks for bringing this up... one of the hindrances to the practice is actually doubt.

If the person doesn't trust the wisdom, or rather, the way that it is being apprehended (which in fact is the only way that we would encounter someone's wisdom), then he's not going to do the practice. It's one of the big hindrances.

:anjali:
Hi beeblebrox,
And interestingly it falls away at stream entry. So up till then it is there?