The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Sep 05, 2014 2:46 am

phil wrote:
Mkoll wrote:. . .
TBH, I don't know the difference between Ven. Analayo's interpretation and the ancient commentarial interpretation of internal/external awareness of feelings/mind.

Can you briefly explain the difference?
To be perfectly honest I can't without going to get the commentary which is not here now or his book which is stored away somewhere.
As I pointed above, this neatly sums up Ven Analayo's discussion on pages 94-102:
      • The first way of interpreting follows the Abhidhammic and commentarial literature, which interprets 'internally/externally' to encompass phenomenon arising in oneself and others. So, when one contemplates body/feelings/mind/dhammas, one contemplates them in oneself and in others. We of course cannot read the minds of others. But reading the Abhidhammic and commentarial literature, Ven. Analayo suggests that we can direct mindfulness towards the outer manifestations of others (facial expressions, posture, movements, etc) so as to practice satipatthana 'externally'.

        The second way of interpretating is suggested by some contemporary teachers who interpret 'internally/externally' to refer to what is inside of the body and what is on the outside of the body--i.e. the surface of the skin. I won't reproduce Ven. Analayo's arguments in detail here. But he more or less argues that while such interpretations are not entirely unfounded and have their practical benefits, they have their limits (e.g. it becomes hard to maintain such a distinction when one begins to contemplate the dhammas). http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 012#p14012
And as I said Ven Analayo in the second to last paragraph (in his 8 page discussion of the subject) of the subject of internal/external states:

      • In summary, although alternative ways of understanding internal satipatthana have their practical value, to understand "internal" as referring to oneself and "external" as referring to others offers a practicable form of contemplation which can moreover claim support from the discourses, the Abhidhamma, and the commentaries.

phil wrote:It's quite possible that his explanation is in line with the predominant exolanation[sic] of the commentary.
As the immediately above quote shows, it would seem so.
But I remember that there are different explanations which the speaker I was listening to (joseoh Goldstein) referred to in passing without explaining in the least before saying he was going to go with Ven Analayo's.
It certainly would help to link to the the offending talk. In the talk I linked above http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_p ... 6/293.html , 2005-03-24 Satipatthana Sutta - part 14 [of 46] - The Refrain, Goldstein states this:
  • "The first line of the refrain” – these are the words of the Buddha --, “In this way in regards to feelings (and again it repeated “in regards to the mind”) one abide contemplating feelings, contemplating the mind, internally; one contemplates them externally; one contemplates them both internally and externally.” That is the first line of the refrain. There are many interpretations about what this actually means, what does internal mean, what does external mean. The interpretation that is commonly suggested and one that is applicable to all the four foundations of mindfulness is the one I’d like to discuss tonight. And that is internal refers to one’s own experience. External refers to the experiences of others.
In other words, he gives a discussion of internal/external that is grounded solidly in the suttas and the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta, and it is grounded in the direct experiential contexts of practice.

In this talk Satipatthana Sutta - part 3 - Concentration And Contemplation there is a detailed discussion but there is no mention Ven Analayo. And there is no mention of Ven Analayo in the “part 14” talk above in the way you suggested.
But I remember that there are different explanations which the speaker I was listening to (joseoh Goldstein) referred to in passing without explaining in the least before saying he was going to go with Ven Analayo's.
I do not think you remembered this very well at all.
Again in this one case fair enough and maybe it's the best explanation.
Goldstein was classically trained, and he also is giving an a discussion that is informed by his personal experience as a meditator and with what he has learned from some 40 years of teaching and working with traditional teachers. You want a detailed discussion of the modern variation of internal/external, that need can be met by Ven Analayo’s book.
But the thing that kind of amazes me is that so far in approximately 13 hours of talks on the sutta that I have listened to he hasn't made a single reference to the classical commentary which would require a subtler, less easily applicable explanation of satipatthana.
It is well over 46 hours of talks, and to say that he has not made a single reference commentarial reference is interesting, given that Joseph was classically trained, takes the commentaries seriously, but is not slavish to them. With the question of internal/external in the Satipatthana Sutta’s refrain, his discussion is straight out of the commentary, and this nothing to do with Ven Analayo. It is straight out of the suttas and the commentary and looked at in terms of actual practice. I have heard Joseph say much the same in the late 70’s early 80’s at the three 3 month retreats I attended with him. Goldstein, on the basis of his own experience is able to bring the Satipatthana Sutta to life. It is not dry regurgitive exposition; rather, it is Dhamma that is vital and experienced, and I would daresay there is far more depth in his talks than you seem to be grasping.
facile
The only thing facile here is this msg of yours to which I am responding.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Mon May 11, 2015 6:51 am

From Nina Van Gorkoms new book, "What I Heard"

Recorded in Nalanda. 1.

Sujin Boriharnwanaket: It takes time to understand realities appearing right now, and this is not merely thinking. No matter how much one thinks of the characteristic of seeing, so long as seeing right now is not understood as a mental reality, it is impossible to really understand the arising and falling away of seeing.

We cannot know what will be the next moment, be it thinking, seeing or hearing; this cannot be predicted. Who conditions sound or hearing, hardness or the experience of hardness? Each moment is conditioned. If one realizes this understanding can be developed of one characteristic at a time; understanding is not developed by a self, but it develops because of conditions. No one can tell at which moment there will be awareness. There should be understanding of a moment of awareness as different from a moment without awareness. This is the beginning of the development of awareness. Otherwise we keep on talking about awareness without there being understanding of the characteristic of awareness.

Awareness is very natural, there is no self who is aware. There may be intention with an idea of self to be aware. One may try very hard to cause its arising but that is not the way; it is motivated by attachment, unknowingly. Whenever awareness arises, it does so before there is thinking about it. It is like hearing which arises before there is thinking about it. Hearing-consciousness can arise after seeing-consciousness very naturally, just like now. Evenso awareness can arise very naturally.

---------

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Mon May 11, 2015 6:58 am

robertk wrote:From Nina Van Gorkoms new book, "What I Heard"

Recorded in Nalanda. 1.

Sujin Boriharnwanaket: It takes time to understand realities appearing right now, and this is not merely thinking. No matter how much one thinks of the characteristic of seeing, so long as seeing right now is not understood as a mental reality, it is impossible to really understand the arising and falling away of seeing.

We cannot know what will be the next moment, be it thinking, seeing or hearing; this cannot be predicted. Who conditions sound or hearing, hardness or the experience of hardness? Each moment is conditioned. If one realizes this understanding can be developed of one characteristic at a time; understanding is not developed by a self, but it develops because of conditions. No one can tell at which moment there will be awareness. There should be understanding of a moment of awareness as different from a moment without awareness. This is the beginning of the development of awareness. Otherwise we keep on talking about awareness without there being understanding of the characteristic of awareness.

Awareness is very natural, there is no self who is aware. There may be intention with an idea of self to be aware. One may try very hard to cause its arising but that is not the way; it is motivated by attachment, unknowingly. Whenever awareness arises, it does so before there is thinking about it. It is like hearing which arises before there is thinking about it. Hearing-consciousness can arise after seeing-consciousness very naturally, just like now. Evenso awareness can arise very naturally.

---------
So, in other words, no need to do anything.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Mon May 11, 2015 7:15 am

Dear tilt
Is sati a conditioned reality, is panna? is hearing a conditioned reality, is seeing a conditioned reality?

Do you have to do something to see, or to hear.. Or do they simply arise by conditions.

Sati is no different than any other reality. It arises because it must if the conditions are present, impossible to stop it arising.
So what are the conditions for satisampajana to arise? Are the conditions a meditation technique? If so did the Buddha give explicit details in the texts of this technique..

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Mon May 11, 2015 7:17 am

robertk wrote:Dear tilt
Is sati a conditioned reality, is panna? is hearing a conditioned reality, is seeing a conditioned reality?

Do you have to do something to see, or to hear.. Or do they simply arise by conditions.

Sati is no different than any other reality. It arises because it must if the conditions are present, impossible to stop it arising.
So what are the conditions for satisampajana to arise? Are the conditions a meditation technique? If so did the Buddha give explicit details in the texts of this technique..
But then there is not a thing to be done for their arising, it would seem.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18568
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist » Mon May 11, 2015 9:25 am

Greetings,
robertk wrote:From an old post by Venerable Dhammanando:

Pariyatti as the Root of the Sāsanā

(From the Atthakathā to Anguttara Nikāya, Ekanipāta, Dutiyapamādādivagga, 42nd sutta)

And in that place [Maṇḍalārāma Monastery in Kallagāma] there arose a discussion among the elders as to whether the root of the Dispensation consisted in practice (paṭipatti) or in study of the Teaching (pariyatti). Those elders who were wearers of rag-robes said, “practice is the root,” and those elders who were teachers of Dhamma said, “study is the root.”

Then some elders said, “we cannot decide between your two opinions merely on the basis of your assertions. Support them by quoting a saying spoken by the Conqueror.”

“It will be no trouble to quote a saying,” replied both sides. Then the elders who were wearers of rag-robes quoted these passages:

“Subhadda, if bhikkhus in this very Dispensation were to live rightly, the world would not be empty of arahants.”

“Your majesty, the Teacher’s Dispensation is rooted in practice and has practice as its pith. While practice is maintained, the Dispensation lasts.”

After listening to these sayings, the elders who were teachers of Dhamma then quoted this saying as proof of their own claim:

“For as long the Suttantas endure, for as long as the Vinaya is taught,
For just that long will there be light, like that after the sun has risen.
But when the Suttantas are no more, and when the Vinaya is forgotten,
There will be darkness in the world, like that after the sun has set.
While the Suttantas are protected, then is practice protected too;
A sage, being grounded in practice, fails not to reach peace from the bonds.”

When this saying was quoted, the elders who were wearers of rag-robes became silent and the speech of the teachers of Dhamma prevailed.

Neither among a hundred bulls, nor among a thousand, will even a single bull ensure the continuance of his line in the absence of a cow. Even so, neither among a hundred bhikkhus intent on insight, nor among a thousand, will even a single bhikkhu penetrate the noble path in the absence of pariyatti.

Marks are engraved in rock to show the location of buried treasure; for as long as those marks endure, the treasure is not reckoned as lost. Even so, for as long as pariyatti endures, the Teacher’s Dispensation is not reckoned to have disappeared.
(Manorathapūraṇī i. 92-3, my translation)
As posted recently here...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Mon May 11, 2015 9:59 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
robertk wrote:From an old post by Venerable Dhammanando:

Pariyatti as the Root of the Sāsanā

(From the Atthakathā to Anguttara Nikāya, Ekanipāta, Dutiyapamādādivagga, 42nd sutta)

And in that place [Maṇḍalārāma Monastery in Kallagāma] there arose a discussion among the elders as to whether the root of the Dispensation consisted in practice (paṭipatti) or in study of the Teaching (pariyatti). Those elders who were wearers of rag-robes said, “practice is the root,” and those elders who were teachers of Dhamma said, “study is the root.”

Then some elders said, “we cannot decide between your two opinions merely on the basis of your assertions. Support them by quoting a saying spoken by the Conqueror.”

“It will be no trouble to quote a saying,” replied both sides. Then the elders who were wearers of rag-robes quoted these passages:

“Subhadda, if bhikkhus in this very Dispensation were to live rightly, the world would not be empty of arahants.”

“Your majesty, the Teacher’s Dispensation is rooted in practice and has practice as its pith. While practice is maintained, the Dispensation lasts.”

After listening to these sayings, the elders who were teachers of Dhamma then quoted this saying as proof of their own claim:

“For as long the Suttantas endure, for as long as the Vinaya is taught,
For just that long will there be light, like that after the sun has risen.
But when the Suttantas are no more, and when the Vinaya is forgotten,
There will be darkness in the world, like that after the sun has set.
While the Suttantas are protected, then is practice protected too;
A sage, being grounded in practice, fails not to reach peace from the bonds.”

When this saying was quoted, the elders who were wearers of rag-robes became silent and the speech of the teachers of Dhamma prevailed.

Neither among a hundred bulls, nor among a thousand, will even a single bull ensure the continuance of his line in the absence of a cow. Even so, neither among a hundred bhikkhus intent on insight, nor among a thousand, will even a single bhikkhu penetrate the noble path in the absence of pariyatti.

Marks are engraved in rock to show the location of buried treasure; for as long as those marks endure, the treasure is not reckoned as lost. Even so, for as long as pariyatti endures, the Teacher’s Dispensation is not reckoned to have disappeared.
(Manorathapūraṇī i. 92-3, my translation)
As posted recently here...

Metta,
Retro. :)
And the above explains this? If so, how?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8504
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by cooran » Tue May 12, 2015 1:01 am

Kuhn Sujin is highly thought of throughout the Buddhist world - and was awarded the Outstanding Woman In Buddhism Award by the United Nations in 2007. I haven't been to Bangkok for over ten years, but her teachings were always attended by highly educated, diligently practising Buddhists from Universities across the globe.

http://www.linkapedia-buddhism.com/topi ... t/58916581" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Tue May 12, 2015 1:21 am

cooran wrote:Kuhn Sujin is highly thought of throughout the Buddhist world - and was awarded the Outstanding Woman In Buddhism Award by the United Nations in 2007. I haven't been to Bangkok for over ten years, but her teachings were always attended by highly educated, diligently practising Buddhists from Universities across the globe.

http://www.linkapedia-buddhism.com/topi ... t/58916581" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With metta,
Chris
That is all very nice, but as we read through this thread, the clear picture we get of her teachings, as portrayed by her followers here and in her own words, is certainly not mainstream Theravada, and it clearly rejects meditation practice because meditation practice is being something driven by lobha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Tue May 12, 2015 6:48 am

Interesting site cooran!
Tilt,
Sujin does not reject meditation, but she defines meditation ( in the buddhist sense of bhavana) as something that can arise at any time in any position.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Tue May 12, 2015 6:54 am

robertk wrote:Interesting site cooran!
Tilt,
Sujin does not reject meditation, but she defines meditation ( in the buddhist sense of bhavana) as something that can arise at any time in any position.
More correctly: She redefines meditation, and she does so in such a way as to be critical of what one finds in the suttas concerning the cultivation of meditation and and what ones find coming from meditation teachers.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Tue May 12, 2015 7:03 am

On the link that cooran gave I just found this post by a moderator at thaivisa which is quite relevant. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/312 ... important/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
'
'sabaijai', on 12 Aug 2010 - 19:24, said:


I think it's difficult to separate dhamma and meditation. First of all dhamma isn't 'knowledge.' It's the underlying reality - or the ultimate reality, if you prefer - for Buddhism. One also needs to define what is meant by 'meditation' in this context. Samatha? Satipatthanna vipassana? Very different, with different purposes. Samatha requires a certain stillness perhaps encouraged by formal meditation postures. Satipatthana vipassana does not require formal postures, once a certain stage has been reached.

Even then, as the Buddha himself is reported to have said, merely hearing dhamma is enough for some people. Dhamma precedes meditation, is explored through meditation, and is still there afterwards, once you see it.

In one sense the proportion of formal meditation in one's practice will necessarily vary from individual to individual depending on kamma and conditions. Nowhere in the Tipitaka, as far as I know, does it say that meditation (even satipatthana vipassana) is necessary *and* sufficient for path attainment. Dhamma study necessarily comes first, and is sometimes sufficient for some people.

The Sutta Pitaka contains more than 10,000 separate discourses. Only two suttas focus entirely on meditation, the Mahasatipatthana Sutta (Four Foundations of Mindfulness) and the Anapanasati Sutta (Mindfulness of Breathing). A search of Access to Insight's translations of the Suttas online for the word 'meditation' yields only 93 results, and aside from the aforementioned two suttas, most of the mentions occur in passing.

The rest of the 10,000 discourses are taken up with matters such as cultivating right view, cultivating loving kindness, how kamma works (one of which, the Devadaha Sutta, refutes the notion of burning away kamma through meditation), how to introduce the Buddha's teachings to others, how to decide which spiritual paths are worth following and how laypeople can live happy and fulfilling lives.

Most Theravada Buddhist monks and laypeople spend at most a small portion of the day in meditation. From time to time - especially in the early years of practice - they may do retreats of a few days, very rarely up to a month, but again, in relation to the calendar year, relatively less time is spent meditating than on other activities.

Once the four foundations of mindfulness have been established, 'meditation' (arising of sati) can occur anytime, any place and in any posture. As the dhamma seeds grow into thriving trees, so to speak, the need for formal meditation grows less and less.

It seems to me that formal meditation is a laboratory where dhamma can be tested (again, more for some people than for others). I've spent a lot of time perched on meditation cushions in temples, on retreats and at home. Speaking for myself, most of that time was wasted until I begin receiving very specific dhamma training from a couple of good teachers.

One thing I have noticed in myself and in others is that as long as you think you are doing something with meditation itself that will further the path, you will go nowhere. Only when dhamma is seen - and this can happen just as easily out of formal meditation as in it - is stream entry possible.

This is what I've been taught, and what experience has confirmed. YMMV.
Can we explore your reply a little further?

I've very interested in learning and getting on the right path.

Was the specific dhamma training you received from good teachers universal to all & could you share these?


Could it be said that although 2 of 10,000 discourses relate to meditation, this doesn't necessarily diminish the importance of meditation but rather may indicate the subject can be captured in two suttas?

Are the four foundations of mindfulness captured through the practice of Mindfulness and the study of Dhamma?

Would you say that although merely hearing Dhamma is enough for some people, this is rare?


I personally find that regular sitting meditation calms me down to a point which enables me to more successfully focus on my mindfulness.
It also helps me overcome overreaction (auto response) in day to day life situations.






Meditation, as I've been taught, and I've experienced it, and more importantly as it appears to be taught in the Suttanta, is an adjunct to dhamma.

r
ocky, I wish I were the kind of spiritual genius who could write something here in this box where you'd see exactly what is meant, but I'm afraid I am not of that caliber. I once firmly believed, like most Westerners, that meditation was the summum bonum of Buddhist practice. I now believe that it has its place among a lot of other supporting structures in 'the raft,' and that the practice involves your whole life, not just the parts where you're sitting cross-legged or walking back and forth slowly like a mental patient. But I'm a lousy teacher ;)

I'd say that hearing or reading the dhamma and getting it is worth more than a thousand hours of meditation, for almost any type of personality.

But a lot of people don't realise that until they've practised a lot of formal meditation. If you ask those who have had that kind of result, ie the arising of sati, I'll bet 9 out of 10 will admit the actual arising of sati did not occur while they were formally sittting/walking etc, but rather during some other activity.

It's easy to conclude that the arising wouldn't have occurred without the formal meditation. But it arose during moments of mindfulness of dhamma. It arises when you no longer separate your life into practice and non-pratice, when you carry the paramattha dhamma with you wherever you go. It comes when sati grasps the separate arising of nama and rupa.

Even for the slowest student, meditation is eventually no longer needed, as Buddha himself said in the famous discourse on abandoning the raft you built, once across the stream. A poster above claimed that enlightened beings and Buddhas continue to meditate. Well I've never met a Buddha so I can't comment, and I'm not sure I've ever met an enlightened being but the teachers I respect most spend a small proportion of their days in formal meditation, if at all. When they do practise formal sitting meditation it's when they're teaching beginners - perhaps to build confidence, serve as an example or 'read' the situation. Or they practice samatha to condition mental health and calmness. Mindfulness is something they practice in every waking moment, so there is absolutely no need to sit down and 'meditate' anymore.

Most Westerners who get into Buddhism initially focus on meditation and most seem to stay fcoussed on it until they quit meditating altogether, frustrated that they can't grasp dhamma.

As for the dhamma theory, it's all laid out in the Tipitaka. Google 'paramattha dhamma' and read and re-read everything you can find about it. Find a teacher and ask them about paramattha dhamma and listen to what they say. Or find somewhat like Khun Sujin who can actually take you on a dialectic tour through your own citta. A few sessions will give you enough to wrestle with for a very long time,

Meditation is a great laboratory and a great calmative. I still practise formal meditation and I still attend the occasional retreat. But it can be a bit like taking psychedelic drugs, ie disappointing when you 'come down.' It can be terrifying when insight actually arises and you realise your ego was behind the intention to meditate in the first place, not kusala citta. On the other hand f practised under the right conditions and perhaps with a very good teacher, nibbana is possible.





It isn't how much you meditate, it's how much you understand dhamma, that determines progress along the path. Meditating won't necessarily show you the way if you don't have a map. Your citta are like computer processes, as in the old saw 'garbage in, garbage out.'

Everyone must find the right balance for themselves.

We don't know how much of the meditation Buddha practised himself led to his enlightenment. He followed many practices that he abandoned along the way, including fasting and other severe austerities. What we do know, from the Tipitaka at least, is that after it became apparent to others that he was enlightened, and he was persuaded to teach how to reach that space, that the first thing out of his mouth wasn't 'Sit down and meditate, and you'll find out. Here's how.' The first thing he taught was straight dhamma, starting with one of the factors of existence and its cause, and the eight practises which together would do the job.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Tue May 12, 2015 7:13 am

robertk wrote: . . .
Written "in house" as it were. Still does not change the fact that as you have presented Sujin's teachings, as as we can read and hear them in the links in this thread, there is a wholesale redefining of meditation that essentially criticizes any attempts at doing a meditation practice, as outlined in various suttas, as being driven by lobha.

Shall we go back and replay your comments about about meditation?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Tue May 12, 2015 7:19 am

Of course, please replay any posts of mine that you find helpful.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Tue May 12, 2015 7:31 am

robertk wrote:Of course, please replay any posts of mine that you find helpful.
Or to illustrate your negative take on meditation practice you can just pick up from ealier posts where have negavitively characterized meditation practice as sīlabbata-parāmāsa, for example.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Wed May 13, 2015 6:50 am

Dear tilt
This is one if the posts I wrote earlier in the thread if that is what you mean:


Please check out the quotes from the Satipatthana sutta I supplied earlier in this thread.
in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension
.

Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

My claim is that the path is a purely mental state, not at all dependent on posture. It is, to coin Retro, 'posture neutral'.

However if one believes that insight depends on being in a certain posture, or if one thinks that some technique is what vipassana is or leads to vipassana, then this belief is, so I claim, an indication of silabataparamasa.

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture as I mentioned above.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Wed May 13, 2015 7:48 am

robertk wrote:Dear tilt
This is one if the posts I wrote earlier in the thread if that is what you mean:


Please check out the quotes from the Satipatthana sutta I supplied earlier in this thread.
in defecating and in urinating, is a person practising clear comprehension(satisampajanna); in walking, in standing (in a place), in sitting (in some position), in sleeping, in waking, in speaking and in keeping silence, is a person practising clear comprehension
.

Insight can arise while walking, while standing, while looking straight ahead, while looking to the back, while defacating and while urinating. And most certainly it can arise while sitting.

My claim is that the path is a purely mental state, not at all dependent on posture. It is, to coin Retro, 'posture neutral'.

However if one believes that insight depends on being in a certain posture, or if one thinks that some technique is what vipassana is or leads to vipassana, then this belief is, so I claim, an indication of silabataparamasa.

Note I am referring here to vipassana: some samatha is aided by seclusion and by specific posture as I mentioned above.
It is worth reproducing your " silabataparamasa" posting:
    • SamKR wrote:
      robertk wrote:
      tiltbillings wrote:So, Robert, I'll ask you again, what does what you are advocating look like as an actual daily practice?
      Here is a summary of yesterday's practice.
      Wake up, check email, brush teeth. Go to coffee shop, read local newscpaper while indulging in brewed coffee. Go to gym, 30 minutes on stepmill then a 1km swim. Go to office, have first meeting of day. Forget about second schefuled meeting, arrive 15 minutes late for that.
      Discuss baby issue with wife on phone.
      Finish work early, go to shopping center. Buy a shirt at La Martina. Sales girl asks where I am from and whether she can come to new zealand with me. Feel 10 years under my age after that comment.
      Have a coffe and tuna bun at Belly sandwich shop, outstanding service and taste. And so it goes...
      Suppose my "practice" yesterday was similar to yours as quoted above...and then:

      sit on a cushion, start observing breath for half an hour, and then observe bodily sensations for another half an hour -- while contemplating the Buddha's teachings about anicca, dukkha, anatta; while observing arising and passing away; while observing reduction of raga-dosa-moha and increase in equanimity.
      Would this last addition of mine be considered a part of daily practice for the sake of wisdom?
      robertk wrote:Dear Sam
      let's think about silabataparamasa. This is one of the things that has to be eliminated for nibbana to arise.

      It is not that sitting and watching the breath or watching bodily sensations is going to help or hinder the path, anymore than me chosing the Belly Sandwich Shop in preference to Subway. But if one believes that it is these very operations that somehow are key to satisampajanna to arise then one is in the realm of silabataparamasa.

      And even the more subtle - and ostensibly correct - 'contemplating anicca , dukkha, anatta ' at leisure or whatever, is close to an idea of a self that can decide to have these type of contemplations.
      The comment about 'observing rising and passing away" . To truly see 'rising and falling' is not dependent on anything other that deepening wisdom that can discern this. After all in in truth the elements are rising and falling trillions of times in a second.

      Eveyone, even non-buddhist, see/know that things change, that at one moment there is seeing, one moment hearing, that there is a flux of everchanging feelings : but there is an idea of a self who is doing so, there is no real seeing of the actual separation of mind aand matter.
Which is to say that any sort of deliberate attempt at cultivating meditation is a problem, from your standpoint, and, according to Sujin, such attempts at meditation are grounded in lobha.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23043
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Wed May 13, 2015 8:35 am

Just to add a bit of flavor to robertk's jaundiced view of meditation practice.
    • robertk wrote:
      Mr Man wrote:Robert but how about trying sitting without any thought of I'm doing this "so understanding can grow" maybe you would enjoy it in it's own right (like swimming). Maybe you would see different things.

      Why do you open a dhamma book? Is it any different?

      Who is judging the quality of the different activities?
      Hi mr man,
      yes if sitting meditation is done in that way as something to strenghthen posture, or feel relaxed , or to take a breather from the mad pursuit of happiness, then sure it is not silabataparamasa.

      For me I have my other hobbies so am not so nterested for now.*
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2490
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Wed May 13, 2015 10:57 am

Dear Tilt
It might be better if we start a new spinoff thread - you can choose the title- and we can begin with those quotes you found..
this one is getting a bit long..

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 18568
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist » Thu May 14, 2015 1:03 am

Greetings,

Yes, I enjoy this topic being about "the causes for wisdom", not "the same old grievances about Robert's preferences".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Garrib, JohnK, SarathW and 71 guests