The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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phil
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by phil » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:23 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
phil wrote: I would like to hear more acknowledgment that what she says might be wrong on some points. I think she is less likely to give the impression that she thinks she is infallible than some of her students do. Not thinking of Robert there, actually...
In listening to the linked talk in this msg http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p229904 Sujin is her own worst enemy, in that she encourages her followers in the sectarian approach of dismissing Dhamma practices that do not conform to her point of view.

When she is at her best she will make it very clear why the practices represent wrong view. There are many discussions where visitors wander into the web if you will and really there is in many cases a pretty tough revelation of just where their understanding has been let astray by their gurus. But I will admit at other times and this is often the case there's just a simple "no understanding" laid down as soon as the word meditation is mentioned which is really a little bit lazy, there should always be a clear development of the explanation of where specific practices go wrong but perhaps because it is such a familiar topic there is a kind of shorthand at work, regular members are familiar with the exclamation.
If however as you say any dismissing of others' practices is a kind of unwholesome sectarianism then she can certainly be accused of it. But at her best the topic of others' practices don't come up and there is just a lot of helpful unforced guidance towards understanding reality. I would say discussing of others practices only constitutes around 10% of the total discussion time, roughly speaking, unless there is a visitor who is a proponent of some practice that will of course therefore they will be in the hot seat and there will be a lot of discussion about it and yes the visitor will certainly feel grilled... But as Mike said day almost surely know what they're getting into so shouldn't be surprised. And yes perhaps their beliefs and or understanding will be rejected in a pretty forthright way which could be called undiplomatic or inconsiderate or even intellectually lazy at times or whatever. She's in her mid 80s after all and discusses for hours on end and so she can't always be perfectly engaging I don't think.

In passing Mike thanks for your comments on the ancient commentaries I agree absolutely is it really a bit ridiculous how readily they are dismissed. Certainly they can and should be questioned but the easy dismissal is a bit absurd and indicates something really lazy about modern-day approach to Dhamma and also a failure to appreciate that it is really much much deeper and subtler then we naturally like to and want to think/believe in order to get quick comfort and solace and encouragement out of it...my opinion.

I wrote this quickly sorry for any typos caused by Siri.
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:17 am

phil wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
phil wrote: I would like to hear more acknowledgment that what she says might be wrong on some points. I think she is less likely to give the impression that she thinks she is infallible than some of her students do. Not thinking of Robert there, actually...
In listening to the linked talk in this msg http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p229904 Sujin is her own worst enemy, in that she encourages her followers in the sectarian approach of dismissing Dhamma practices that do not conform to her point of view.

When she is at her best she will make it very clear why the practices represent wrong view.
In her opinion. From what has been presented here via the linked talk, numerous quotes from her and from Nina VG and from what robertk and dhamma follower have said, I would have to say that Sujin is rather clueless when it comes to what is actually involved when it comes to actual meditation practice. And this has been addressed at length in this thread, though the Sujin followers here really have not engaged the responses to her criticisms.
If however as you say any dismissing of others' practices is a kind of unwholesome sectarianism then she can certainly be accused of it. But at her best the topic of others' practices don't come up and there is just a lot of helpful unforced guidance towards understanding reality. I would say discussing of others practices only constitutes around 10% of the total discussion time, roughly speaking, unless there is a visitor who is a proponent of some practice that will of course therefore they will be in the hot seat and there will be a lot of discussion about it and yes the visitor will certainly feel grilled...
10% is obviously more than enough to color her followers approach, and she certainly does not do anything to tamp down the triumphalist attitude of her followers as we can hear in the hear in the talk linked above. If you can show us something different, please do.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by robertk » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:31 am

ancientbuddhism wrote:The main theses of Kusota’s paper is not whether the Sujin milieu is a ‘cult’, that quip was mine.

I also had attended Sujin’s lectures at MCU and found much the same as Kusota did from her sycophantic students. That Sujin makes bold, irresponsible claims is her own head, but to not yield when soundly defeated in those claims is intellectually dishonest.
Where is MCU?
Why not start a thread where you briefly illustrate the points she was soundly defeated on.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by ancientbuddhism » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:19 am

phil wrote:When she is at her best she will make it very clear why the practices represent wrong view…
Sujin makes very clear her own cogent opinion. However, when she and her followers, when confronted to supply evidence from suttanta (or even the commentaries which could point to suttanta) only revert to further Sujin opinion. In short, there is no discussion with them as any attempt becomes circular.
robertk wrote:Where is MCU?
http://www.mcu.ac.th/site/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahachulal ... University
robertk wrote:Why not start a thread where you briefly illustrate the points she was soundly defeated on.
This thread has already defeated Sujin from those of her own choir.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by phil » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:49 am

Hi Tiltbilling, all

10% is obviously more than enough to color her followers approach, and she certainly does not do anything to tamp down the triumphalist attitude of her followers as we can hear in the hear in the talk linked above. If you can show us something different, please do.
Well, I'll be out of this thread now, but I'll just leave a taste. I find the best thing is to just get her talking about the natural development of understanding, which must be very gradual,and of course accompanied by detachment. (I assume we are acknowledge that as panna is kusala, it must -- as all kusala cittas must -- be accompanied by alobha. Now, to be honest, these days I am listening to other teachers because I am wanting fast results, instant tips for how to fend with sense door objects in a more strategic way, for example, in order to lead a more wholesome life and be happier. And surely the Buddha in many suttas does so as well. I think in particular of the MN sutta where he, for example, tells Rahula to consider the implications of his actions, or when he talks of when he decided to categorize his thoughts into two categories, very pragmatic strategies or remedies that can be applied upon hearing, as long as they are remembered by a basic level of sati. So when I listen to Joseph Goldstein, for example, there are lots of useful tips for negotiating daily life. And yet, when I listen to her when she is just talking like in the first five minutes of the following link, there is something much subtler, much closer to the heartwood, I feel, a real appreciation of anataness and detachment that develops little by little from the beginning along with understanding. But I am too impatient for results to be content with such a gradual development of understanding.

http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/audio/i ... aya_02.mp3


In any case,I am very grateful to have had the opportunity to hear her, and look forward to making another trip in January. (Lovely people and great food and lovely settings as well, that is maybe as big of a reason to want to go.)

OK, I will move on from this thread.

Thanks.

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:29 am

phil wrote: Well, I'll be out of this thread now, but I'll just leave a taste. I find the best thing is to just get her talking about the natural development of understanding, which must be very gradual,and of course accompanied by detachment. (I assume we are acknowledge that as panna is kusala, it must -- as all kusala cittas must -- be accompanied by alobha.
What I find interesting is the movement from unwholesome to wholesome. I just do not find Sujin's explanation very convincing, but I'll listen to the linked talk and see what there is to see.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:43 am

I listened to the first 5+ mins, and I will, when I am not at work, listen to all of it. I understand what she is doing here, and what the basis is for her criticism of other ways of practice. And I still think she has not a clue as to what is going on when someone sits on a cushion to meditate.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by culaavuso » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:40 pm

phil wrote:Now, to be honest, these days I am listening to other teachers because I am wanting fast results, instant tips for how to fend with sense door objects in a more strategic way, for example, in order to lead a more wholesome life and be happier. And surely the Buddha in many suttas does so as well. I think in particular of the MN sutta where he, for example, tells Rahula to consider the implications of his actions, or when he talks of when he decided to categorize his thoughts into two categories, very pragmatic strategies or remedies that can be applied upon hearing, as long as they are remembered by a basic level of sati. So when I listen to Joseph Goldstein, for example, there are lots of useful tips for negotiating daily life.
The suttas appear to describe craving, discontent, exertion when unskillful states have arisen, distress and longing as all being productive along the path when they arise in with appropriate conditions. This desire for results may be productive or unproductive depending on conditions, but in productive conditions it appears to be described as furthering development of the path.
AN 4.159: Bhikkhunī Sutta wrote: This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.
AN 2.5: Upaññāta Sutta wrote: Monks, I have known two qualities through experience: discontent with regard to skillful qualities and unrelenting exertion. Relentlessly I exerted myself, [thinking,] 'Gladly would I let the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, but if I have not attained what can be reached through human firmness, human persistence, human striving, there will be no relaxing my persistence.' From this heedfulness of mine was attained Awakening. From this heedfulness of mine was attained the unexcelled freedom from bondage.
AN 6.20: Maraṇasati Sutta wrote: If, on reflecting, he realizes that there are evil, unskillful mental qualities unabandoned by him that would be an obstruction for him were he to die in the night, then he should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities. Just as when a person whose turban or head was on fire would put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness to put out the fire on his turban or head, in the same way the monk should put forth extra desire, effort, diligence, endeavor, undivided mindfulness, & alertness for the abandoning of those very same evil, unskillful qualities.
MN 141: Saccavibhaṅga Sutta wrote: And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort.
MN 137: Saḷāyatana­vibhaṅga Sutta wrote: And what are the six kinds of renunciation distress? The distress coming from the longing that arises in one who is filled with longing for the unexcelled liberations when — experiencing the inconstancy of those very forms, their change, fading, & cessation — he sees with right discernment as it actually is that all forms, past or present, are inconstant, stressful, subject to change and he is filled with this longing: 'O when will I enter & remain in the dimension that the noble ones now enter & remain in?' This is called renunciation distress. (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.)
...
By depending & relying on the six kinds of renunciation distress, abandon & transcend the six kinds of household distress.
AN 6.63: Nibbedhika Sutta wrote: And what is the result of stress? There are some cases in which a person overcome with pain, his mind exhausted, grieves, mourns, laments, beats his breast, & becomes bewildered. Or one overcome with pain, his mind exhausted, comes to search outside, 'Who knows a way or two to stop this pain?' I tell you, monks, that stress results either in bewilderment or in search. This is called the result of stress.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:25 am

culaavuso wrote:
phil wrote:Now, to be honest, these days I am listening to other teachers because I am wanting fast results, instant tips for how to fend with sense door objects in a more strategic way, for example, in order to lead a more wholesome life and be happier. And surely the Buddha in many suttas does so as well. I think in particular of the MN sutta where he, for example, tells Rahula to consider the implications of his actions, or when he talks of when he decided to categorize his thoughts into two categories, very pragmatic strategies or remedies that can be applied upon hearing, as long as they are remembered by a basic level of sati. So when I listen to Joseph Goldstein, for example, there are lots of useful tips for negotiating daily life.
The suttas appear to describe craving, discontent, exertion when unskillful states have arisen, distress and longing as all being productive along the path when they arise in with appropriate conditions. This desire for results may be productive or unproductive depending on conditions, but in productive conditions it appears to be described as furthering development of the path.
AN 4.159: Bhikkhunī Sutta wrote: This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.
That text goes on to say:

  • "'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to what was it said? There is the case, sister, where a monk hears, 'The monk named such-and-such, they say, through the ending of the fermentations, has entered & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for himself in the here & now.' The thought occurs to him, 'I hope that I, too, will — through the ending of the fermentations — enter & remain in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having known & realized them for myself in the here & now.' Then he eventually abandons craving, having relied on craving. 'This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.' Thus was it said. And in reference to this was it said.


We have this from above sutta in contrast to this coming from a Sujin follower:
    • When you slow down the movements in order to have sati, what is there? lobha! Can lobha condition sati to arise? If there is no understanding of what sati is and what are the conditions for it to arise, how can there be real sati which arises to be aware of dhammas as just dhammas (and not "I" am aware of this or that)? So real arising and passing away is still too far, truly.... http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 40#p229476
I would have to say that Sujin and her followers are missing something here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by phil » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:13 pm

Hi again, Mike, all
phil wrote: But thanks to having listened to her I can also see how much of what I hear from modern teachers is deviating from a strict adherence to the tipitika. I think that's especially true if one values Abhidhamma and its commentaries which I do. If one rejects or relegates them to a lower place...
mike wrote:Personally, I never cease to be amazed by the implication I see in some posts that the ancient commentaries have completely misunderstood the Dhamma, with little or no attempt to actually engage with them. The poster's favourite modern commentator(s) of the moment are then wheeled out as representing the correct interpretation. It seems to be a strangely contradictory attitude that the ancients who preserved the texts, the lineage, and the practice that enables us to have access to the Dhamma today can be summarily written off as bumbling incompetents. I certainly value modern scholarship and teachers, and would not have made any progress in understanding the Dhamma without it. But "scholarship" that arbitrarily dismisses such important sources of interpretation and practical experience doesn't impress me very much.

:anjali:
Mike
I had a reason to groan re this this evening. Listening to a popular teacher's talk on MN 10, when he got to the section on internal and external awareness of feelings and mind, he noted that there were many explanations about the meaning of this but didn't mention them at all and instead just jumped into a very appealing, easily applicable explanation in terms of inferring the feelings and mind states of others, all of it very emotionally sensible in terms of dealing with people, then when he got to the internal and external and he chose venerable Analayo's explanation, and during all this at no point did he make a reference to what else the ancient commentaries say. And this is always the case as everyone turns to venerable Analayo's book as though it were an authoritative commentary rather then a book written by a modern monk whose understanding has developed in line with a soecific modern tradition of meditation. (Forgive me if I am wrong about that but I recall from reading the book that there were many references to the Mahasi Sayadaw style. Which is fair enough for a book eritten for devotees of that, but not for a book which is now taken to be an authoritative commentary.) Does it matter that modern listeners are being led to rely on neo-commentaries while ignoring the classical commentaries? Again we are responsible for our own understanding so moaning about what's happening to other people's understanding is silly. But I too am silly so I have to do it on occasion.


Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:31 pm

phil wrote: Does it matter that modern listeners are being led to rely on neo-commentaries while ignoring the classical commentaries? Again we are responsible for our own understanding so moaning about what's happening to other people's understanding is silly. But I too am silly so I have to do it on occasion.
But don't forget, as this thread makes quite clear, is that one can have "neo-commentaries" on the commentaries based upon one modern interpreter's take on the commentaries.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mkoll » Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:45 pm

phil wrote:I had a reason to groan re this this evening. Listening to a popular teacher's talk on MN 10, when he got to the section on internal and external awareness of feelings and mind, he noted that there were many explanations about the meaning of this but didn't mention them at all and instead just jumped into a very appealing, easily applicable explanation in terms of inferring the feelings and mind states of others, all of it very emotionally sensible in terms of dealing with people, then when he got to the internal and external and he chose venerable Analayo's explanation, and during all this at no point did he make a reference to what else the ancient commentaries say. And this is always the case as everyone turns to venerable Analayo's book as though it were an authoritative commentary rather then a book written by a modern monk whose understanding has developed in line with a soecific modern tradition of meditation. (Forgive me if I am wrong about that but I recall from reading the book that there were many references to the Mahasi Sayadaw style. Which is fair enough for a book eritten for devotees of that, but not for a book which is now taken to be an authoritative commentary.) Does it matter that modern listeners are being led to rely on neo-commentaries while ignoring the classical commentaries? Again we are responsible for our own understanding so moaning about what's happening to other people's understanding is silly. But I too am silly so I have to do it on occasion.


Phil
TBH, I don't know the difference between Ven. Analayo's interpretation and the ancient commentarial interpretation of internal/external awareness of feelings/mind.

Can you briefly explain the difference?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:19 pm

phil wrote: ... And this is always the case as everyone turns to venerable Analayo's book as though it were an authoritative commentary rather then a book written by a modern monk whose understanding has developed in line with a soecific modern tradition of meditation. (Forgive me if I am wrong about that but I recall from reading the book that there were many references to the Mahasi Sayadaw style. ...
Actually, from listening to his talks, e.g. http://audiodharma.org/teacher/208/ and http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/439/ I get the impression that (at least at that time) Ven Analayo had not practiced either Mahasi or Goenka approaches, though he has written articles about them. In one of the talks, I think the "Dynamics of Insight Meditation" talk here:
http://audiodharma.org/teacher/208/ he asks the audience to explain their experiences with the various approaches. And he states, either in that talk or one of the others, that his approach is metta and a quite analytical elements practice.

I do agree that it is strange to simply ignore the Satipatthana Commentary, which is readily available online: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html
Of course, one could read it and choose to disagree with some parts of it, but it seems quite illogical to assume, without investigation, that modern commentators have a better understanding of the Dhamma than the ancient commentators and practitioners did.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:50 pm

Mkoll wrote: TBH, I don't know the difference between Ven. Analayo's interpretation and the ancient commentarial interpretation of internal/external awareness of feelings/mind.

Can you briefly explain the difference?
If you do not have Ven Analayo's SATIPATTHANA: The Direct Path to Realization. It is well worth the time spent carefully reading through it. He is an excellent scholar. His discussion of internal/external runs from page 94 through 102.

Joseph Goldstein's discussion of internal/external in the refrain of the Satipatthana Sutta is here in this talk: http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_p ... 6/293.html It is an excellent talk in practical terms of practice, well worth the time spent with it. His take on internal/external is in line with the commentarial explanation.

And here, in the OP to this thread, is an answer to your question: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 012#p14012 And the thread as a whole maybe of interest.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:01 pm

tiltbillings wrote: And here, in the OP to this thread, is an answer to your question: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 012#p14012 And the thread as a whole maybe of interest.
That seems to suggest that Ven Analayo's interpretation is in line with the commentary, so I'm now curious about Phil's post here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p309454

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:16 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: And here, in the OP to this thread, is an answer to your question: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 012#p14012 And the thread as a whole maybe of interest.
That seems to suggest that Ven Analayo's interpretation is in line with the commentary, so I'm now curious about Phil's post here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p309454

:anjali:
Mike
Haven't a clue as to what Phil's reasoning for his assertion could be. Ven Analayo in the second to last paragraph (page 102) in his extended discussion of internal/external states:

      • In summary, although alternative ways of understanding internal satipatthana have their practical value, to understand "internal" as referring to oneself and "external" as referring to others offers a practicable form of contemplation which can moreover claim support from the discourses, the Abhidhamma, and the commentaries.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by phil » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:06 pm

Mkoll wrote:
phil wrote:I had a reason to groan re this this evening. Listening to a popular teacher's talk on MN 10, when he got to the section on internal and external awareness of feelings and mind, he noted that there were many explanations about the meaning of this but didn't mention them at all and instead just jumped into a very appealing, easily applicable explanation in terms of inferring the feelings and mind states of others, all of it very emotionally sensible in terms of dealing with people, then when he got to the internal and external and he chose venerable Analayo's explanation, and during all this at no point did he make a reference to what else the ancient commentaries say. And this is always the case as everyone turns to venerable Analayo's book as though it were an authoritative commentary rather then a book written by a modern monk whose understanding has developed in line with a soecific modern tradition of meditation. (Forgive me if I am wrong about that but I recall from reading the book that there were many references to the Mahasi Sayadaw style. Which is fair enough for a book eritten for devotees of that, but not for a book which is now taken to be an authoritative commentary.) Does it matter that modern listeners are being led to rely on neo-commentaries while ignoring the classical commentaries? Again we are responsible for our own understanding so moaning about what's happening to other people's understanding is silly. But I too am silly so I have to do it on occasion.


Phil
TBH, I don't know the difference between Ven. Analayo's interpretation and the ancient commentarial interpretation of internal/external awareness of feelings/mind.

Can you briefly explain the difference?
To be perfectly honest I can't without going to get the commentary which is not here now or his book which is stored away somewhere. It's quite possible that his explanation is in line with the predominant exolanation of the commentary. But I remember that there are different explanations which the speaker I was listening to (joseoh Goldstein) referred to in passing without explaining in the least before saying he was going to go with Ven Analayo's. Again in this one case fair enough and maybe it's the best explanation. But the thing that kind of amazes me is that so far in approximately 13 hours of talks on the sutta that I have listened to he hasn't made a single reference to the classical commentary which would require a subtler, less easily applicable explanation of satipatthana. Now and somebody pointed out earlier in this thread if I expect to find that I am listening in the wrong place since he is speaking to retreatsnts who are practicing a certain kind of insight meditation. But these talks have been published as a book and seeing the respect he receives now they will stand along Ven Anakayo's as important kind of authoratative interpretations of the Satipatthana sutta and the subtleties will be lost. Does it matter? Obviously since I have listen to 13 hours of these talks I am enjoying them and benefiting from them probably at the cost of accurate understanding of how subtle Satipatthana is but the practices pointed at are very beneficial for living life in the wholesome way and that is good enough for me now. But I always keep in mind when listening that it is a rather facile, overly pragmatic presentation. It is always easy to look at the Buddha's teachings and say they are pragmatic and there certainly is a huge pragmatic element but it seems to me that it has been stripped down these days to sheer pragmatism seeking effective methods for change now at the expense of some very subtle depths that might interfere with a pragmatic step by step method of applying it effectively to get results in the precious I -took -time -off- for -this -and -I- -had -better -get -some -results retreat. Anyways enough said, just my opinion. As usual sorry for any typos, on the run.

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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daverupa
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by daverupa » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:06 am

Analayo's recent work on the Dawn of the Abhidhamma might be pertinent here.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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retrofuturist
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Sep 05, 2014 12:23 am

Greetings,
daverupa wrote:Analayo's recent work on the Dawn of the Abhidhamma might be pertinent here.
Looks like a very good piece of work - and if one does not have the time, nor inclination to read the entire thing, the conclusion stands alone as a worthwhile read.

The conclusion concludes as follows...
...born out of what originally was a commentary on the Dharma,
Abhidharma has gone “further”, abhi-, than the Dharma, something that
is evident in the employment of new terminology and ideas. Arisen
from the wish to clarify the teachings of the recently deceased Buddha,
what is characteristic of the Abhidharma is a conception of wisdom that
aims at a complete coverage by surveying all the constituents of a single
moment in their interrelation, instead of merely monitoring a process of
disenchantment, dispassion, and seeing as it really is.
... which reads like something of a "missing the forest for the trees" assessment with regards to the canonical Abhidhamma enterprise, nevermind that of the subsequent commentaries that leveraged it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Post by Mkoll » Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:11 am

retrofuturist wrote:the conclusion stands alone as a worthwhile read.
I agree. It's just a few pages.

:reading:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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