A Buddhist discussion forum on the Dhamma of Theravāda Buddhism
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I was at a graduation ceremony for Monash University's faculty of medicine a few days ago. I was very interested to hear the citations of many of Medicine and Psychiatry PhD awardees. From this interested but ignorant lay-person's point of view - there is some incredible research being conducted on the nature of and treatment for depression.BlueLotus wrote:All I know is, we managed to land on the moon many years back but our well supported scientific community hasn't been able to still find an actually lasting and long-term-effective treatment to one of the most common psychological problems today - which is depression. Yes, I am sour.
And I know the cognitive distortions of LABELING (by calling me "lay person" derogatorily), JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS/MIND READING (charging me with "OVER estimating" and accusing me of having a "fixed belief" without evidence beyond your imaginative inferences), MAGNIFYING (your experience and "expertise" over mine) while MINIMIZING (my experience and credentials over yours).PeterB wrote:Indeed MIke...I am psychiatrist with nearly 25 years experience in the field..and along with many of my colleagues in the UK field I have used CBT for the last 12 years.mikenz66 wrote:Hi Daniel,I presume he means PeterB.danieLion wrote: Please cite a name, otherwise I'll treat this as hearsay.
Mike
Uner the British NHS system there is no gain financial or otherwise to be had for preferring one type of treatment over another.
CBT is a enormously useful tool. And it has its limits. It usually does not address to any great degree the group of depressive conditions that used to be called "endogenous " Which are frequently genetically linked and are more like diabetes than they are a " mental " condition in that they involve metabolic dysfunction.. And those conditions are not "statistically insignificant "..it is a large group.
It certainly makes a change to have a lay person OVER estimating the usefulness of a given intervention..!
But I am also long enough in the tooth to recognise a fixed belief when I encounter one.
Why would you write such an irrational thing? Have you actually tried CBT, or RET, or DBT?BlueLotus wrote:All I know is, we managed to land on the moon many years back but our well supported scientific community hasn't been able to still find an actually lasting and long-term-effective treatment to one of the most common psychological problems today - which is depression. Yes, I am sour.
You are a direct health care provider?danieLion wrote: And I know the cognitive distortions of LABELING (by calling me "lay person" derogatorily), JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS/MIND READING (charging me with "OVER estimating" and accusing me of having a "fixed belief" without evidence beyond your imaginative inferences), MAGNIFYING (your experience and "expertise" over mine) while MINIMIZING (my experience and credentials over yours).
Define "direct health care provider." This is reminiscent of a belief in the sovereignty of the medical profession.tiltbillings wrote:You are a direct health care provider?danieLion wrote: And I know the cognitive distortions of LABELING (by calling me "lay person" derogatorily), JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS/MIND READING (charging me with "OVER estimating" and accusing me of having a "fixed belief" without evidence beyond your imaginative inferences), MAGNIFYING (your experience and "expertise" over mine) while MINIMIZING (my experience and credentials over yours).
Just look at all those congitive distortions--and in a description of mind from a contemporary Theravadin meditation master! In case you forgot what cognitive distortions are, here are the ten most common:Rev. Tejaniya wrote: What Are Defilements?
Defilements are not only the gross manifestations of greed,hatred, and delusion but also all their friends and relatives, even the very distant ones!! See if you have ever had one of the following--or similar--thoughts cross your mind: “Those lights should not be on at this time of the day!” “His behaviour is so irritating.” “He should not have done that.” “I could do it a lot faster.” “I am a hopeless meditator; my mind cannot even stay on the rising-falling for one minute.” “Yesterday my meditation was so good; today I am all over the place.” “Wow, this was a wonderful sit; now I need to be really mindful so I don’t lose this feeling.” “I must stay in the Dhamma hall; others will think I am lazy if I don’t.” “I need an extra portion of potatoes today because it’s good for my health.” “Yuk! The salad has onions in it.” “No bananas again!” “He is so selfish, so inconsiderate.” “Why is this happening to me?” “Who is responsible for cleaning the toilets?” “Why is this yogi walking here?” “They shouldn’t be making so much noise!” “There are too many people here; I can’t meditate.” “Someone is sitting in my seat!” “She is so pretty!” “He walks so elegantly!”
All such thoughts are motivated by defilements!! Don’t undeestimate them!
Have you ever told someone you were not angry even though you clearly did not like what he had done? Do you sometimes talk negatively about your boss, a member of your family, or even a good friend? Do you occasionally tell a dirty joke? Do you habitually sweet talk people into doing things for you? Do you automatically raise your voice when someone does not agree with your point of view?
All such talk is motivated by defilements! Watch out for it!
Have you ever knocked really hard on someone’s door, or refused to enter a room simply because someone you dislike was in there, or jumped a queue, or used the shampoo someone left in the bathroom,or made a private call using your employer’s phone line, or done any similar actions – all sort of unthinkingly?
All such actions are motivated by defilements! Become aware of them.
-Don't Look Down On The Defilements: They Will Laugh At You, Part I (pp. 7-8)
I presume a lot of the problem here is that because most people have not read their Hume on causality (Cf. A Treatise of Human Nature and An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding; and for John Searle's scathing critique of Hume's views see this; see also Kant and Hume on Causality) they think that if they just find a cause or causes then they can find a cure. But as any good congnitive behavioral therapist (one of the things I mean by "good" is that they never or very rarely dispense the semi-poisounous toxic chemicals known as anti-depressants) will tell you, overcoming depression is not easy. The desire for easy answers is perpetuated by unfounded beliefs in the efficacy of modern scientific and western philosophical causal analysis or, in a word, delusion.1. All-or-nothing thinking: You see things in black and white categories. If your performance falls short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure.
2. Overgeneralization: You see a single negative event as a never-ending pattern of defeat.
3. Mental filter: You pick out a single negative detail and dwell on it exclusively so that your vision of all reality becomes darkened, like the drop of ink that discolors the entire beaker of water.
4. Disqualifying the positive: You reject positive experiences by insisting they "don't count" for some reason or other. You maintain a negative belief that is contradicted by your everyday experiences.
5. Jumping to conclusions: You make a negative interpretation even though there are no definite facts that convincingly support your conclusion.
-Mind reading: You arbitrarily conclude that someone is reacting negatively to you and don't bother to check it out.
-The Fortune Teller Error: You anticipate that things will turn out badly and feel convinced that your prediction is an already-established fact.
6. Magnification (catastrophizing) or minimization: You exaggerate the importance of things (such as your goof-up or someone else's achievement), or you inappropriately shrink things until they appear tiny (your own desirable qualities or the other fellow's imperfections). This is also called the "binocular trick."
7. Emotional reasoning: You assume that your negative emotions necessarily reflect the way things really are: "I feel it, therefore it must be true."
8. Should statements (musterbating): You try to motivate yourself with shoulds and shouldn'ts, as if you had to be whipped and punished before you could be expected to do anything. "Musts" and "oughts" are also offenders. The emotional consequence is guilt. When you direct should statements toward others, you feel anger, frustration, and resentment.
9. Labeling and mislabeling: This is an extreme form of overgeneralization. Instead of describing your error, you attach a negative label to yourself: "I'm a loser." When someone else's behavior rubs you the wrong way, you attach a negative label to him, "He's a damn louse." Mislabeling involves describing an event with language that is highly colored and emotionally loaded.
10. Personalization: You see yourself as the cause of some negative external event for which, in fact, you were not primarily responsible.
From: Burns, David D., MD. 1989. The Feeling Good Handbook. New York: William Morrow and Company, Inc.
So, the take away from this statement is that you do not do direct patient/client care, you do not do the therapy in question as a therapist with others who are in need. Is this correct?danieLion wrote:Define "direct health care provider." This is reminiscent of a belief in the sovereignty of the medical profession.tiltbillings wrote:You are a direct health care provider?danieLion wrote: And I know the cognitive distortions of LABELING (by calling me "lay person" derogatorily), JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS/MIND READING (charging me with "OVER estimating" and accusing me of having a "fixed belief" without evidence beyond your imaginative inferences), MAGNIFYING (your experience and "expertise" over mine) while MINIMIZING (my experience and credentials over yours).
There've been some interesting developments in the field of depression research. What I've heard is that in the area of pharmacology and depression, the use of ketamine has been profound in treating people with chronic depression. Some docs have ruled out common SSRIs as being helpful for some people, but ketamine holds promise. Thus, the chemical aspect of treating depression. See, if you're interested: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/10 ... onnections" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;BlueLotus wrote:All I know is, we managed to land on the moon many years back but our well supported scientific community hasn't been able to still find an actually lasting and long-term-effective treatment to one of the most common psychological problems today - which is depression. Yes, I am sour.
Forget Ketamine, check out GLYX-13:BuddhaSoup wrote:There've been some interesting developments in the field of depression research. What I've heard is that in the area of pharmacology and depression, the use of ketamine has been profound in treating people with chronic depression. Some docs have ruled out common SSRIs as being helpful for some people, but ketamine holds promise. Thus, the chemical aspect of treating depression. See, if you're interested: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/10 ... onnections" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;BlueLotus wrote:All I know is, we managed to land on the moon many years back but our well supported scientific community hasn't been able to still find an actually lasting and long-term-effective treatment to one of the most common psychological problems today - which is depression. Yes, I am sour.
Great link, thanks. I'm curious: what's the glutamate issue? How does glutamate in diet affect depression? What foods contain glutamate such that they be avoided?cbonanno wrote:Forget Ketamine, check out GLYX-13:BuddhaSoup wrote:There've been some interesting developments in the field of depression research. What I've heard is that in the area of pharmacology and depression, the use of ketamine has been profound in treating people with chronic depression. Some docs have ruled out common SSRIs as being helpful for some people, but ketamine holds promise. Thus, the chemical aspect of treating depression. See, if you're interested: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/10 ... onnections" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;BlueLotus wrote:All I know is, we managed to land on the moon many years back but our well supported scientific community hasn't been able to still find an actually lasting and long-term-effective treatment to one of the most common psychological problems today - which is depression. Yes, I am sour.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 094604.htm
Hint for those who can hear: It al all about glutamate in your diet and glutamate released when you are under stress.
I had the great pleasure of meeting Dr Davidson at a conference in 2009, in addition to being a " star "in the field he is a very nice and very warm human being.. ..his work is truly pioneering and laying a solid basis for an exciting and eclectic response to depressive and other conditions as outlined by you in your final para..There is reason for some real optimism in the sphere.BuddhaSoup wrote:There've been some interesting developments in the field of depression research. What I've heard is that in the area of pharmacology and depression, the use of ketamine has been profound in treating people with chronic depression. Some docs have ruled out common SSRIs as being helpful for some people, but ketamine holds promise. Thus, the chemical aspect of treating depression. See, if you're interested: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/10 ... onnections" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;BlueLotus wrote:All I know is, we managed to land on the moon many years back but our well supported scientific community hasn't been able to still find an actually lasting and long-term-effective treatment to one of the most common psychological problems today - which is depression. Yes, I am sour.
I also live just down the road from Dr. Richard Davidson at U Wisconsin, who has been doing world class research into the use of meditation/MBSR and the treatment of depression, PTSD, and other psychological disorders. http://www.investigatinghealthyminds.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; There's no sense that Dr. Davidson rules out pharmacology in treatment, but implements CBT and mindfulness to treat these disorders, in the company of pharmacology.
I agree with an earlier poster that there's no duality with chemical causes vs. causes developed by negative cognitive processes. It may be that with new pharmacology, and new approaches to CBT and MBSR, people with chronic depression may have a real path forward to successfully treating this illness.