About Kamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:00 pm

santa100 wrote:Please prove why the sutta you have in mind was misinterpreted/taken out of context? Actually, I'll make it simpler for you: please provide an instance of any man or woman in the suttas who were able to attain arahantship right in the immediate life that they killed their own parents?
Cool down santa clause it's Christmas time. lol :tongue:

Besides I just states a general concept in life you know. Like anything else in life, there'll always be exception. Why not that apply to suttas because it is like anything else in life. There is this exception that some suttas are not correct and some mother-killing-hell-going scenarios are not captured in suttas. Are you telling me you cannot open your mind just a little bit to that possibility? :tongue:

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:09 pm

I'm totally cool so no worry.. :smile: By the way santa means peace in Pali, like we have our friend CittaSanto at our forum, meaning peaceful mind..

As said before, I'm all open for the possibility of mistranslation, but you can't just say this sutta or that sutta is corrupt without providing proof or evidence to back that up..

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:13 pm

OK here's why. This sutta:
"There are these five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable. Which five? One who has killed his/her mother, one who has killed his/her father, one who has killed an arahant, one who — with a corrupted mind — has caused the blood of a Tathagata to flow, and one who has caused a split in the Sangha. These are the five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable."
does NOT explicitly and 100% definitely talk about a hell as in a burning, tormenting place where you go after death. Why not this "hell" be a hell you experience in the mind? If I killed my mother, I would experience a lot of hell right in this own mind, for a long time too. That would make nibbana very very difficult to me. Meditation will be very hard. But that doesn't mean I cannot if I try, let it go and bring peace.

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:26 pm

BlueLotus wrote:OK here's why. This sutta:
"There are these five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable. Which five? One who has killed his/her mother, one who has killed his/her father, one who has killed an arahant, one who — with a corrupted mind — has caused the blood of a Tathagata to flow, and one who has caused a split in the Sangha. These are the five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable."
does NOT explicitly and 100% definitely talk about a hell as in a burning, tormenting place where you go after death. Why not this "hell" be a hell you experience in the mind? If I killed my mother, I would experience a lot of hell right in this own mind, for a long time too. That would make nibbana very very difficult to me. Meditation will be very hard. But that doesn't mean I cannot if I try, let it go and bring peace.
Again, I keep saying that it's possible to let it go and have peace of mind. But attaining arahantship right in the immediate life after one's killed their own parents? Now that's a whole different story. By the way, I'm still waiting on you to provide any instance of man or woman who was able to attain arahanship in their immediate life in which they killed their own mother..

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daverupa
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Re: About Kamma

Post by daverupa » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:22 pm

This may be helpful:
AN 3.99 wrote:"There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.
---
santa100 wrote:By the way, I'm still waiting on you to provide any instance of man or woman who was able to attain arahanship in their immediate life in which they killed their own mother..
I don't know why you want to focus on the immediate life; the whole discussion thus far has highlighted how kamma can ripen now, later, or thereafter.

I refer you to the story of the death of Maha Moggallana:
A heinous deed committed in days long past (by causing the death of his own parents) had not yet been expiated, and the ripening of that old Kamma confronted him now, just as others are suddenly confronted by a grave illness. Moggallana realized that he was now unable to escape.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:59 pm

I simply challenged the notion that it is possible for someone who killed his or her parents to attain nibbana right in their immediate life. AN 5.129 said it's not. Your quote on Ven. Moggallana (who did not kill his parents at the same life time of which he attained arahantship)is in accordance with Ven. Thanissaro's note in AN 5.129 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ):
This discourse lists the five grave deeds that are said to prevent one's chances of attaining any of the noble attainments in this lifetime. People who commit them fall — immediately at the moment of death — into hell. No help from outside is able to mitigate the sufferings they will endure in hell, and thus they are said to be incurable. Only when the results of these deeds have worked themselves out will they be released from hell. Even if they return to the human plane, they will continue to suffer the consequences of their deeds. For example, Ven. Moggallana, one of the Buddha's foremost disciples, killed his parents many aeons ago, and the results of that deed pursued him even through his final lifetime, when he was beaten to death.

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daverupa
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Re: About Kamma

Post by daverupa » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:58 pm

santa100 wrote:Only when the results of these deeds have worked themselves out will they be released from hell.
Then how did Maha Moggallana attain arahantship, and only then have the final fruits of such an act come forth? He'd have needed to be released from hell to arise in the human realm, but couldn't have been released before the deeds were worked out in hell... and yet there he was in the human realm experiencing results which should have already been worked out in hell!

These sorts of problems occasionally crop up in the Nikayas; I suppose we can only do our best, and refrain from saying "only this is true, anything else is worthless", yes? It highlights the fact that the Nikayas reflect at least one hundred years of Buddhist thought, and not solely the ~40 years of the Buddha's dispensation. Textual conflict is bound to occur, in such a case.

:heart:
Last edited by daverupa on Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:28 pm

Well, if we read Ven. Thanissaro's message carefully, he mentioned the results of killing one's own parents are so grave that not only one will have to pay for that in the lower realms (hell, animals, and hungry ghost), one still has to pay for it after s/he's made it to the human realm. The phrase "worked themselves out" is valid to the extent that it allows one to "be released from hell". But nowhere did it said it would totally exhaust all of one's remaining kamma, thus the tragic death of Ven. Moggallana even after he's made it to the human realm.

Again, I simply challenge the claim without saying only this or that is true. The sutta and Ven. T makes sense and there's no evidence of corruption to this particular sutta..

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daverupa
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Re: About Kamma

Post by daverupa » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:35 pm

It may be so, friend.

:shrug:
DN 2 wrote:"A transgression has overcome me, lord, in that I was so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to kill my father — a righteous man, a righteous king — for the sake of sovereign rulership. May the Blessed One please accept this confession of my transgression as such, so that I may restrain myself in the future."

"Yes, great king, a transgression overcame you in that you were so foolish, so muddle-headed, and so unskilled as to kill your father — a righteous man, a righteous king — for the sake of sovereign rulership. But because you see your transgression as such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your confession.
:jawdrop:
For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & Discipline of the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future."

When this was said, King Ajatasattu said to the Blessed One: "Well, then, lord, I am now taking leave. Many are my duties, many my responsibilities."

"Then do, great king, what you think it is now time to do."

So King Ajatasattu, delighting and rejoicing in the Blessed One's words, rose from his seat, bowed down to him, and — after circumambulating him — left. Not long after King Ajatasattu had left, the Blessed One addressed the monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he not killed his father — that righteous man, that righteous king — the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this very seat."

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words.
No mention of hell here; no Dhamma Eye for such a one, however, at least on that occasion.

So fascinating, these Nikayas...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:47 pm

Ah, right there:
So King Ajatasattu, delighting and rejoicing in the Blessed One's words, rose from his seat, bowed down to him, and — after circumambulating him — left. Not long after King Ajatasattu had left, the Blessed One addressed the monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he not killed his father — that righteous man, that righteous king — the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this very seat.


Proved my point, no dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arisen, let alone arahantship right in his immediate life! "accept your confession"? yes; repentance? yes; some peace of mind? yes; arahantship in this very life? No!

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daverupa
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Re: About Kamma

Post by daverupa » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:48 pm

santa100 wrote:Ah, right there:
So King Ajatasattu, delighting and rejoicing in the Blessed One's words, rose from his seat, bowed down to him, and — after circumambulating him — left. Not long after King Ajatasattu had left, the Blessed One addressed the monks: "The king is wounded, monks. The king is incapacitated. Had he not killed his father — that righteous man, that righteous king — the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this very seat.


Proved my point, no dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arisen, let alone arahantship right in his immediate life! "accept your confession"? yes; repentance? yes; some peace of mind? yes; arahantship in this very life? No!
The sentence reads, "Had he not killed his father... the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye would have arisen to him as he sat in this very seat."

Nothing about the rest of this life, and nothing about the next.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:50 pm

And he DID kill his father. That's the whole point. Nothing about the rest of this life, and nothing about the next? there's AN 5.129 for him to work on..

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:28 am

santa100 wrote:Again, I keep saying that it's possible to let it go and have peace of mind. But attaining arahantship right in the immediate life after one's killed their own parents? Now that's a whole different story.
That's the point. You make it a whole different story based on some sutta which do not say so with 100% certainty in the first place. You just have interpreted it the way you like and closed your mind completely to other possibility. It is possible the sutta talks about a mental hell a person experience after killing. It is possible the sutta talks about a psychological concept rather than a hell you are go after death.
santa100 wrote:By the way, I'm still waiting on you to provide any instance of man or woman who was able to attain arahanship in their immediate life in which they killed their own mother..
I think I already answered this. We cannot expect suttas to cover all possible scenarios we find in life. Sometimes we can make a fair and calculated assumption. Regarding "who was able to attain arahanship in their immediate life in which they killed their own mother" I think a bulk of other suttas which say that a person who has developed the noble path can attain the highest fruit of that path is acceptable enough for me. Coupled with the fact that a serial killer like Angulimala who gruesomely killed many mothers attained nibbana too. But you are so hung on your own belief that "killing 1000 mothers is still not as bad as killing MY mother". What can I do? :thinking:

Also the sutta you pointed out does not say one having killed his own mother cannot attain nibbana in this life either. It just say he will be in major deprived state. This "deprived state" can very well be the mental agony he goes thorough rather than a burning hell world.

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:13 pm

Bluelotus wrote:
That's the point. You make it a whole different story based on some sutta which do not say so with 100% certainty in the first place. You just have interpreted it the way you like and closed your mind completely to other possibility. It is possible the sutta talks about a mental hell a person experience after killing. It is possible the sutta talks about a psychological concept rather than a hell you are go after death.
You're talking about yourself. I'm not the one who brushed aside what's taught in AN 5.129. The sutta message and Ven. Thanissaro's note couldn't be any more clear. You have not even answered my question about any evidence of folks who killed their parents AND attained arahantship in the same life time. You cherry-picked the idea about hell and assumed that it's strictly and exclusively a mental state. This is not a proof to conclude that AN 5.129 is false. So, until you've provided proof about the corruption of this sutta AND/OR evidence of just one single person in the entire Nikayas who was able to attain arahantship in the same lifetime that s/he killed his/her parents, there's no reason for anyone to believe in your claim that it is possible to attain arahantship in the same life time that one's just committed the heinous crimes. It's that simple.

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:49 pm

santa100 wrote:You're talking about yourself. I'm not the one who brushed aside what's taught in AN 5.129. The sutta message and Ven. Thanissaro's note couldn't be any more clear.
Ven. Thanissaro's note is just a commentary right? We don't have to take it as 100% the one and only interpretation.
santa100 wrote: You have not even answered my question about any evidence of folks who killed their parents AND attained arahantship in the same life time.
Suttas also don't say what will happen if I pee in my pants. lol... I donno man. How can I give you evidence that don't exist. The sutta don't cover all life scenarios. As I said we can make fair and calculated assumptions on some things based on a bulk of suttas rather than hang on a selected one or two and come to definitive conclusions.
santa100 wrote:You cherry-picked the idea about hell and assumed that it's strictly and exclusively a mental state.
oh No. Bo all means it is possible there is an actual hell a person goes to if he killed his mother. But it is similarly possible this "hell" is a "hell" in the mind. Mental hell is the worst kind of hell. ;)
santa100 wrote:This is not a proof to conclude that AN 5.129 is false. So, until you've provided proof about the corruption of this sutta AND/OR evidence of just one single person in the entire Nikayas who was able to attain arahantship in the same lifetime that s/he killed his/her parents, there's no reason for anyone to believe in your claim that it is possible to attain arahantship in the same life time that one's just committed the heinous crimes. It's that simple.
See the suttas don't ONLY say what you say. You can interpret those suttas in many other ways as well. Therefore, there is no need to ONLY believe that a person will definitely, without any reasonable doubt die, go to hell, suffer there, rearrise as a human and then only he can attain nibbana just because he killed his mother but the other guy killed 10,000 mothers, another 100,000 kids but didn't have to go to hell because he didn't kill his own mother. :P

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