About Kamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:43 pm

santa100 wrote:Killing one's own mother who bear the pain of labor and nurturing you for so many years carries extremely severe kamma. Obviously that does not mean that killing in general will result in any trivial consequences. But there exist degrees of severity and this is undeniable. You could argue all you want but the fact remains that Angulimala had killed many people who were fathers, mothers, brothers, or sisters to someone. But then he laid down his knife, cultivated the Dhamma with all his strength, and attained arahantship right in his current life. Had he kill his own mother, he could still lay down his knife, cultivated the Dhamma with all his strength, but he would NOT be able to attain arahantship in his current life because of the Five Heinous Crimes rules specified in the suttas..
All what you said about mother is true. Yet I do not see why someone who killed a woman who carried and labored another human being for many years can lay down the weapon and attain nibbana but cannot lay down the weapon and attain nibbana just because he happened to be the man who was in that womb. I do not see a difference in a woman who carried and nurtured you to a woman who carried and nurtured another person. I think no matter what a man does, if he try and develop meditation he should be able to find peace in this life. I don't want to blindly believe Five Heinous Crimes rules so let's just disagree on this and move on.

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:02 pm

Bluelotus wrote:
All what you said about mother is true. Yet I do not see why someone who killed a woman who carried and labored another human being for many years can lay down the weapon and attain nibbana but cannot lay down the weapon and attain nibbana just because he happened to be the man who was in that womb. I do not see a difference in a woman who carried and nurtured you to a woman who carried and nurtured another person. I think no matter what a man does, if he try and develop meditation he should be able to find peace in this life. I don't want to blindly believe Five Heinous Crimes rules so let's just disagree on this and move on.
Until we've reached enlightenment, there'll be tons of things that we do not see. So keep an open mind and keep on training. Wishing you all the best..

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:10 pm

santa100 wrote: Until we've reached enlightenment, there'll be tons of things that we do not see. So keep an open mind and keep on training. Wishing you all the best..
Thanks, You too please try keep an open mind regarding these Five Heinous Crimes rules which you read from centuries old texts. :anjali:

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:17 pm

Thanks Bluelotus. To me, an open minded attitude means at least be open to the possibility of what the suttas say and not immediately brush aside the idea. I haven't attained "Direct Knowledge" so there's no way for me to say with 100% certainty about anything. Until that day, the "provisional" faith (not "blind" faith) I put in the teaching serves me as guide posts to further my practice..

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:40 pm

santa100 wrote: I haven't attained "Direct Knowledge" so there's no way for me to say with 100% certainty about anything.
Yet you do.
he would NOT be able to attain arahantship in his current life because of the Five Heinous Crimes rules

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:49 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
santa100 wrote: I haven't attained "Direct Knowledge" so there's no way for me to say with 100% certainty about anything.
Yet you do.
he would NOT be able to attain arahantship in his current life because of the Five Heinous Crimes rules
I provided my take on the issue. I've never said you have to agree with me. At least I did not jump to conclusions like:
Bluelotus wrote:
It doesn't sound right a compassionate Buddha waited till he killed so many people (what the difference of your own mother and some other mother anyway) if he could help the guy before.. OR:

Killing your own mother is unimaginable but killing your neighbor's mother is somewhat imaginable? It sound like possessive thinking of someone stuck in self-view..

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daverupa
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Re: About Kamma

Post by daverupa » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:02 pm

BlueLotus wrote:Buddha explains "on the dissolution of the body, after death" sinners reappear in hell. What are your thoughts on the suttas?
Well, let's go the text (MN 136), where we see that the very next passage after the one you've quoted is
(ii) "But here some person kills living beings... and has wrong view. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, in the heavenly world.
Later, we find the Buddha explain that some will see these differing pieces of evidence and
obstinately misapprehends what he himself has known, seen and felt; insisting on that alone, he says: 'Only this is true, anything else is wrong.'
So this is the problem being discussed. What is the alternative? Since
there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result); there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result)."
we can understand that kamma functions in many diverse ways which can fool and mislead the puthujjana; and, given this complexity, the precise workings out of kamma are imponderable.

But the important thing - the general theme of intention and consequence - is consistently described, and is what allows us to train the mind and practice the Dhamma with benefit; it pays to focus on this to the exclusion of the past and the future, whereby wrong attention is developed, per MN 2.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:08 pm

santa100 wrote:I provided my take on the issue.
Your take on the issue is that a person who killed his mother can NEVER become an arahath in his current life no matter how much he practices and develops sila because you read so in an old parchment. True there is a possibility the old parchment is correct but there is also the possibility we are mistranslating, misinterpreting, misunderstanding something which came down from mouth to mouth and hand to hand over 1000s of years ago. Who knows it was not tampered with, distorted etc without any doubt at all?

Currently, I like to think anyone who develops dhamma can attain nibbana irrespective of the skeletons in his closet. But who knows. Maybe kamma gets to us in not seeing ways.
santa100 wrote:I've never said you have to agree with me.
As I clear said, let's disagree and move on. No need to tell each other to open their minds when we both seem to attach to our views right? :jumping:

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:16 pm

Bluelotus wrote:
Your take on the issue is that a person who killed his mother can NEVER become an arahath in his current life no matter how much he practices and develops sila because you read so in an old parchment. True there is a possibility the old parchment is correct but there is also the possibility we are mistranslating, misinterpreting, misunderstanding something which came down from mouth to mouth and hand to hand over 1000s of years ago. Who knows it was not tampered with, distorted etc without any doubt at all?


Again, I did not just make up what I said. You can read the suttas for yourself. There're always possibilities for mistranlastion but until one could provide clear evidence to prove that's the case, it'll remain one's own assumption. I agree that we disagree and that we should move on.. :anjali:

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:21 pm

santa100 wrote: Again, I did not just make up what I said.
I know. You read it in sutta. :tongue:

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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:22 pm

At least we're clear on that... :tongue:

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:26 pm

santa100 wrote: There're always possibilities for mistranlastion but until one could provide clear evidence to prove that's the case, it'll remain one's own assumption.
It will always be assumption because we cannot say with 100% certain if those few suttas are corrupted. But it maybe a fair assumption. I have not mastered sutta yet but so far the suttas I have read Buddha seems to say that anyone following the 8-fold path to its completion attain nibbana. The noble path is open to all and nibbana is open to anyone following it. That says a lot.

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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:30 pm

Sure, that's true in general. Sure one can attain nibbana eventually, but....right in the immediate life that he just killed his mother? Not according to the sutta. Like anything else in life, there'll always be exception.... :tongue:

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:41 pm

santa100 wrote:Sure, that's true in general. Sure one can attain nibbana eventually, but....right in the immediate life that he just killed his mother? Not according to the sutta. Like anything else in life, there'll always be exception.... :tongue:
Yea like in general suttas are correct but like anything else in life, there'll always be exception like suttas that are misinterpreted/taken out of context. :stirthepot:

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:47 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
santa100 wrote:Sure, that's true in general. Sure one can attain nibbana eventually, but....right in the immediate life that he just killed his mother? Not according to the sutta. Like anything else in life, there'll always be exception.... :tongue:
Yea like in general suttas are correct but like anything else in life, there'll always be exception like suttas that are misinterpreted/taken out of context. :stirthepot:
Please prove why the sutta you have in mind was misinterpreted/taken out of context? Actually, I'll make it simpler for you: please provide a single instance of any man or woman in the suttas who were able to attain arahantship right in the immediate life that they killed their own parents?

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