About Kamma

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:49 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
santa100 wrote: I haven't attained "Direct Knowledge" so there's no way for me to say with 100% certainty about anything.
Yet you do.
he would NOT be able to attain arahantship in his current life because of the Five Heinous Crimes rules
I provided my take on the issue. I've never said you have to agree with me. At least I did not jump to conclusions like:
Bluelotus wrote:
It doesn't sound right a compassionate Buddha waited till he killed so many people (what the difference of your own mother and some other mother anyway) if he could help the guy before.. OR:

Killing your own mother is unimaginable but killing your neighbor's mother is somewhat imaginable? It sound like possessive thinking of someone stuck in self-view..

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daverupa
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Re: About Kamma

Post by daverupa » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:02 pm

BlueLotus wrote:Buddha explains "on the dissolution of the body, after death" sinners reappear in hell. What are your thoughts on the suttas?
Well, let's go the text (MN 136), where we see that the very next passage after the one you've quoted is
(ii) "But here some person kills living beings... and has wrong view. On the dissolution of the body, after death, he reappears in a happy destination, in the heavenly world.
Later, we find the Buddha explain that some will see these differing pieces of evidence and
obstinately misapprehends what he himself has known, seen and felt; insisting on that alone, he says: 'Only this is true, anything else is wrong.'
So this is the problem being discussed. What is the alternative? Since
there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result); there is kamma that is incapable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears capable (of good result); there is kamma that is capable (of good result) and appears incapable (of good result)."
we can understand that kamma functions in many diverse ways which can fool and mislead the puthujjana; and, given this complexity, the precise workings out of kamma are imponderable.

But the important thing - the general theme of intention and consequence - is consistently described, and is what allows us to train the mind and practice the Dhamma with benefit; it pays to focus on this to the exclusion of the past and the future, whereby wrong attention is developed, per MN 2.

:heart:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:08 pm

santa100 wrote:I provided my take on the issue.
Your take on the issue is that a person who killed his mother can NEVER become an arahath in his current life no matter how much he practices and develops sila because you read so in an old parchment. True there is a possibility the old parchment is correct but there is also the possibility we are mistranslating, misinterpreting, misunderstanding something which came down from mouth to mouth and hand to hand over 1000s of years ago. Who knows it was not tampered with, distorted etc without any doubt at all?

Currently, I like to think anyone who develops dhamma can attain nibbana irrespective of the skeletons in his closet. But who knows. Maybe kamma gets to us in not seeing ways.
santa100 wrote:I've never said you have to agree with me.
As I clear said, let's disagree and move on. No need to tell each other to open their minds when we both seem to attach to our views right? :jumping:

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:16 pm

Bluelotus wrote:
Your take on the issue is that a person who killed his mother can NEVER become an arahath in his current life no matter how much he practices and develops sila because you read so in an old parchment. True there is a possibility the old parchment is correct but there is also the possibility we are mistranslating, misinterpreting, misunderstanding something which came down from mouth to mouth and hand to hand over 1000s of years ago. Who knows it was not tampered with, distorted etc without any doubt at all?


Again, I did not just make up what I said. You can read the suttas for yourself. There're always possibilities for mistranlastion but until one could provide clear evidence to prove that's the case, it'll remain one's own assumption. I agree that we disagree and that we should move on.. :anjali:

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:21 pm

santa100 wrote: Again, I did not just make up what I said.
I know. You read it in sutta. :tongue:

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:22 pm

At least we're clear on that... :tongue:

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:26 pm

santa100 wrote: There're always possibilities for mistranlastion but until one could provide clear evidence to prove that's the case, it'll remain one's own assumption.
It will always be assumption because we cannot say with 100% certain if those few suttas are corrupted. But it maybe a fair assumption. I have not mastered sutta yet but so far the suttas I have read Buddha seems to say that anyone following the 8-fold path to its completion attain nibbana. The noble path is open to all and nibbana is open to anyone following it. That says a lot.

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:30 pm

Sure, that's true in general. Sure one can attain nibbana eventually, but....right in the immediate life that he just killed his mother? Not according to the sutta. Like anything else in life, there'll always be exception.... :tongue:

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:41 pm

santa100 wrote:Sure, that's true in general. Sure one can attain nibbana eventually, but....right in the immediate life that he just killed his mother? Not according to the sutta. Like anything else in life, there'll always be exception.... :tongue:
Yea like in general suttas are correct but like anything else in life, there'll always be exception like suttas that are misinterpreted/taken out of context. :stirthepot:

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:47 pm

BlueLotus wrote:
santa100 wrote:Sure, that's true in general. Sure one can attain nibbana eventually, but....right in the immediate life that he just killed his mother? Not according to the sutta. Like anything else in life, there'll always be exception.... :tongue:
Yea like in general suttas are correct but like anything else in life, there'll always be exception like suttas that are misinterpreted/taken out of context. :stirthepot:
Please prove why the sutta you have in mind was misinterpreted/taken out of context? Actually, I'll make it simpler for you: please provide a single instance of any man or woman in the suttas who were able to attain arahantship right in the immediate life that they killed their own parents?

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:00 pm

santa100 wrote:Please prove why the sutta you have in mind was misinterpreted/taken out of context? Actually, I'll make it simpler for you: please provide an instance of any man or woman in the suttas who were able to attain arahantship right in the immediate life that they killed their own parents?
Cool down santa clause it's Christmas time. lol :tongue:

Besides I just states a general concept in life you know. Like anything else in life, there'll always be exception. Why not that apply to suttas because it is like anything else in life. There is this exception that some suttas are not correct and some mother-killing-hell-going scenarios are not captured in suttas. Are you telling me you cannot open your mind just a little bit to that possibility? :tongue:

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:09 pm

I'm totally cool so no worry.. :smile: By the way santa means peace in Pali, like we have our friend CittaSanto at our forum, meaning peaceful mind..

As said before, I'm all open for the possibility of mistranslation, but you can't just say this sutta or that sutta is corrupt without providing proof or evidence to back that up..

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BlueLotus
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Re: About Kamma

Post by BlueLotus » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:13 pm

OK here's why. This sutta:
"There are these five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable. Which five? One who has killed his/her mother, one who has killed his/her father, one who has killed an arahant, one who — with a corrupted mind — has caused the blood of a Tathagata to flow, and one who has caused a split in the Sangha. These are the five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable."
does NOT explicitly and 100% definitely talk about a hell as in a burning, tormenting place where you go after death. Why not this "hell" be a hell you experience in the mind? If I killed my mother, I would experience a lot of hell right in this own mind, for a long time too. That would make nibbana very very difficult to me. Meditation will be very hard. But that doesn't mean I cannot if I try, let it go and bring peace.

santa100
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Re: About Kamma

Post by santa100 » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:26 pm

BlueLotus wrote:OK here's why. This sutta:
"There are these five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable. Which five? One who has killed his/her mother, one who has killed his/her father, one who has killed an arahant, one who — with a corrupted mind — has caused the blood of a Tathagata to flow, and one who has caused a split in the Sangha. These are the five inhabitants of the states of deprivation, inhabitants of hell, who are in agony & incurable."
does NOT explicitly and 100% definitely talk about a hell as in a burning, tormenting place where you go after death. Why not this "hell" be a hell you experience in the mind? If I killed my mother, I would experience a lot of hell right in this own mind, for a long time too. That would make nibbana very very difficult to me. Meditation will be very hard. But that doesn't mean I cannot if I try, let it go and bring peace.
Again, I keep saying that it's possible to let it go and have peace of mind. But attaining arahantship right in the immediate life after one's killed their own parents? Now that's a whole different story. By the way, I'm still waiting on you to provide any instance of man or woman who was able to attain arahanship in their immediate life in which they killed their own mother..

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daverupa
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Re: About Kamma

Post by daverupa » Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:22 pm

This may be helpful:
AN 3.99 wrote:"There is the case where a trifling evil deed done by a certain individual takes him to hell. There is the case where the very same sort of trifling deed done by another individual is experienced in the here & now, and for the most part barely appears for a moment.
---
santa100 wrote:By the way, I'm still waiting on you to provide any instance of man or woman who was able to attain arahanship in their immediate life in which they killed their own mother..
I don't know why you want to focus on the immediate life; the whole discussion thus far has highlighted how kamma can ripen now, later, or thereafter.

I refer you to the story of the death of Maha Moggallana:
A heinous deed committed in days long past (by causing the death of his own parents) had not yet been expiated, and the ripening of that old Kamma confronted him now, just as others are suddenly confronted by a grave illness. Moggallana realized that he was now unable to escape.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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