Sotapanna and five precepts

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Twilight
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by Twilight » Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:59 am

But here is what they say about a cula-sotapanna:
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

How is the mahasi technique helping at achieving at least the level of dhamma follower ? How can one obtain insight about eye consciousness, ear consciousness, mind consciousness etc. by focusing on the rise and fall of the abdomen witch belongs to the form aggregate ? And how can one do that without contemplation, how can discernment about consciousness pop up by doing that ?
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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mikenz66
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:04 am

For the millionth time, rise and fall of the abdomen in just a little corner of the picture.

How is the fist tetrad of the anapanasati sutta helping at achieving at least the level of dhamma follower ?

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:18 am

How can one obtain insight about eye consciousness, ear consciousness, mind consciousness etc. by focusing on the rise and fall of the abdomen witch belongs to the form aggregate ? And how can one do that without contemplation, how can discernment about consciousness pop up by doing that ?
By studying Dependent Origination as it occurs on experiential level, When Seeing arises, he know it has eye element, eye consciousness and contact as its condition, by Entering into Vipassanajhana the Three Characteristics are perceived in the experience of seeing, this applies to mental fabrications ofc. It also applies to perceptions, and all the Aggregates. By establishing Sati on Arisen phenomena and training patience is Insight achieved. Without patience there is no Insight, supression of hindrances or attainments. He will see how one thing leads to another basicly, eventually the mind seeing the three characteristics in everything - lets go. It will also serve to concentrate the mind and supress the five hindrances to a necessary level for cessation to take place if conditions (path factors) are present
Last edited by R1111 = rightviewftw on Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Twilight
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by Twilight » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:23 am

I agree it is a useful exercise for the development of paramitas. I never said it is bad. But mahasi claims this will also lead to stream entry. And I do not see how observing the form aggregate can "penetrate with wisdom" or "understand with discernment" things about the consciousness aggregate, the most difficult to understand from all 5 aggregates. It is this and the claim that jhana (8th step of the noble 8thfold path) is not required that I have a problem with. I really don't see how one can understand consciousness like that and become at least a faith follower or dhamma follower.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:34 am

In general the word Jhana means "meditation".
There are three main types of of Jhana
1. Samatha Jhana
a) Rupa Samatha Jhana (those with form for object of meditation)
b) Arupa Samatha Jhana (formless object)

2. Vipassana Jhana
Basicly momentary jhana, this is just the moment of Sati basicly, when one is seeing clearly, Referred to as Clear Thought often. One knows thinking as thinking, doubt as doubt etc. Seeing the Three Characteristics.

3. Lokuthara Jhana, supermundane Absorbtion (Ariya Jhana)


So a Jhana is required for Stream Entry but it is ultimately entered into by supression of the five hindrances and entering momentary Vipassanajhana before entering the Lokuthara Jhana but all path factors need to be present. As far as i understand it can be done from Rupa Samatha Jhana to Vipassanajhana then into Lokuthara Jhana aswell.

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:43 am

Twilight wrote:I agree it is a useful exercise for the development of paramitas. I never said it is bad. But mahasi claims this will also lead to stream entry. And I do not see how observing the form aggregate can "penetrate with wisdom" or "understand with discernment" things about the consciousness aggregate, the most difficult to understand from all 5 aggregates. It is this and the claim that jhana (8th step of the noble 8thfold path) is not required that I have a problem with. I really don't see how one can understand consciousness like that and become at least a faith follower or dhamma follower.
It's a full satipatthana approach, so it involves all of the aggregates, hindrances, awakening factors, noble truths, and on and on.

I'm waiting for you to answer my question:
How is the first tetrad of the anapanasati sutta helping at achieving at least the level of dhamma follower ?
“Breathing in long, he understands: ‘I breathe in long’; or breathing out long, he understands: ‘I breathe out long.’ Breathing in short, he understands: ‘I breathe in short’; or breathing out short, he understands: ‘I breathe out short.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body of breath’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body of breath.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the bodily formation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the bodily formation.’
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn118/20
You seem to be dismissing Mahasi, and other, approaches, by reading a quick-start guide that covers similar ground to that tetrad, and assuming there is nothing else.

:shrug:
Mike

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Twilight
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by Twilight » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:52 am

Yes, how is that helping in understanding consciousness ? It helps in developing mindfulness, that is what it's supposed to do.
Last edited by Twilight on Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

R1111 = rightviewftw
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:52 am

Attainment of Lokuthara Jhana is attainment of Stream Entry.

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mikenz66
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:53 am

How is what helping?

:anjali:
Mike

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Twilight
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by Twilight » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:53 am

R1111 wrote:Attainment of Lokuthara Jhana is attainment of Stream Entry.
What in the world is Lokuthara Jhana ??????
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

R1111 = rightviewftw
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:56 am

Twilight wrote:Yes, how is that helping in understanding consciousness ? It helps in developing mindfulness, that is what it's supposed to do.
In general one can see how consciousness acts as a condition for experience. Do you want a more technical answer?

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:58 am

Twilight wrote:
R1111 wrote:Attainment of Lokuthara Jhana is attainment of Stream Entry.
What in the world is Lokuthara Jhana ??????
Stars with N ends with an A, 7 letters and Its not in the World!
Last edited by R1111 = rightviewftw on Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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aflatun
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by aflatun » Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:04 am

Twilight wrote:Yes, how is that helping in understanding consciousness ? It helps in developing mindfulness, that is what it's supposed to do.
This has been pointed to in various ways, but for Mahasi the goal is to be able to note all six sense doors continuously and without interruption, and see the three characteristics therein clearly and in real time. As he describes it the speed and clarity of noting reach a velocity and precision where "verbal" noting would be too slow and cumbersome to accommodate.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by R1111 = rightviewftw » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:43 pm

Rattana Sutta, Here The Buddha describes the Stream Enterer to Non-Human beings as i understood it. translated from the Pali by
Piyadassi Thera
9. "Those who realized the Noble Truths well taught by him who is profound in wisdom (the Buddha), even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they will not take an eighth existence (in the realm of sense spheres).[6] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

10. "With his gaining of insight he abandons three states of mind, namely self-illusion, doubt, and indulgence in meaningless rites and rituals, should there be any. He is also fully freed from the four states of woe, and therefore, incapable of committing the six major wrongdoings.[7] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

11. "Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana).[8] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

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_anicca_
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by _anicca_ » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:50 am

Twilight wrote:Yes, how is that helping in understanding consciousness ? It helps in developing mindfulness, that is what it's supposed to do.
After sustained practice, the mental noting falls away leaving only awareness of phenomena as anicca, dukkha, and anatta.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia

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