Sotapanna and five precepts

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Twilight
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by Twilight » Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:59 am

But here is what they say about a cula-sotapanna:
At Savatthi. "Monks, eye-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

How is the mahasi technique helping at achieving at least the level of dhamma follower ? How can one obtain insight about eye consciousness, ear consciousness, mind consciousness etc. by focusing on the rise and fall of the abdomen witch belongs to the form aggregate ? And how can one do that without contemplation, how can discernment about consciousness pop up by doing that ?
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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mikenz66
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:04 am

For the millionth time, rise and fall of the abdomen in just a little corner of the picture.

How is the fist tetrad of the anapanasati sutta helping at achieving at least the level of dhamma follower ?

:anjali:
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R1111
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by R1111 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:18 am

How can one obtain insight about eye consciousness, ear consciousness, mind consciousness etc. by focusing on the rise and fall of the abdomen witch belongs to the form aggregate ? And how can one do that without contemplation, how can discernment about consciousness pop up by doing that ?
By studying Dependent Origination as it occurs on experiential level, When Seeing arises, he know it has eye element, eye consciousness and contact as its condition, by Entering into Vipassanajhana the Three Characteristics are perceived in the experience of seeing, this applies to mental fabrications ofc. It also applies to perceptions, and all the Aggregates. By establishing Sati on Arisen phenomena and training patience is Insight achieved. Without patience there is no Insight, supression of hindrances or attainments. He will see how one thing leads to another basicly, eventually the mind seeing the three characteristics in everything - lets go. It will also serve to concentrate the mind and supress the five hindrances to a necessary level for cessation to take place if conditions (path factors) are present
Last edited by R1111 on Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Twilight
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by Twilight » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:23 am

I agree it is a useful exercise for the development of paramitas. I never said it is bad. But mahasi claims this will also lead to stream entry. And I do not see how observing the form aggregate can "penetrate with wisdom" or "understand with discernment" things about the consciousness aggregate, the most difficult to understand from all 5 aggregates. It is this and the claim that jhana (8th step of the noble 8thfold path) is not required that I have a problem with. I really don't see how one can understand consciousness like that and become at least a faith follower or dhamma follower.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

R1111
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by R1111 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:34 am

In general the word Jhana means "meditation".
There are three main types of of Jhana
1. Samatha Jhana
a) Rupa Samatha Jhana (those with form for object of meditation)
b) Arupa Samatha Jhana (formless object)

2. Vipassana Jhana
Basicly momentary jhana, this is just the moment of Sati basicly, when one is seeing clearly, Referred to as Clear Thought often. One knows thinking as thinking, doubt as doubt etc. Seeing the Three Characteristics.

3. Lokuthara Jhana, supermundane Absorbtion (Ariya Jhana)


So a Jhana is required for Stream Entry but it is ultimately entered into by supression of the five hindrances and entering momentary Vipassanajhana before entering the Lokuthara Jhana but all path factors need to be present. As far as i understand it can be done from Rupa Samatha Jhana to Vipassanajhana then into Lokuthara Jhana aswell.

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:43 am

Twilight wrote:I agree it is a useful exercise for the development of paramitas. I never said it is bad. But mahasi claims this will also lead to stream entry. And I do not see how observing the form aggregate can "penetrate with wisdom" or "understand with discernment" things about the consciousness aggregate, the most difficult to understand from all 5 aggregates. It is this and the claim that jhana (8th step of the noble 8thfold path) is not required that I have a problem with. I really don't see how one can understand consciousness like that and become at least a faith follower or dhamma follower.
It's a full satipatthana approach, so it involves all of the aggregates, hindrances, awakening factors, noble truths, and on and on.

I'm waiting for you to answer my question:
How is the first tetrad of the anapanasati sutta helping at achieving at least the level of dhamma follower ?
“Breathing in long, he understands: ‘I breathe in long’; or breathing out long, he understands: ‘I breathe out long.’ Breathing in short, he understands: ‘I breathe in short’; or breathing out short, he understands: ‘I breathe out short.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body of breath’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body of breath.’ He trains thus: ‘I shall breathe in tranquillising the bodily formation’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out tranquillising the bodily formation.’
https://suttacentral.net/en/mn118/20
You seem to be dismissing Mahasi, and other, approaches, by reading a quick-start guide that covers similar ground to that tetrad, and assuming there is nothing else.

:shrug:
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Twilight
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by Twilight » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:52 am

Yes, how is that helping in understanding consciousness ? It helps in developing mindfulness, that is what it's supposed to do.
Last edited by Twilight on Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

R1111
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by R1111 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:52 am

Attainment of Lokuthara Jhana is attainment of Stream Entry.

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mikenz66
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:53 am

How is what helping?

:anjali:
Mike

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Twilight
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by Twilight » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:53 am

R1111 wrote:Attainment of Lokuthara Jhana is attainment of Stream Entry.
What in the world is Lokuthara Jhana ??????
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

R1111
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by R1111 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:56 am

Twilight wrote:Yes, how is that helping in understanding consciousness ? It helps in developing mindfulness, that is what it's supposed to do.
In general one can see how consciousness acts as a condition for experience. Do you want a more technical answer?

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by R1111 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:58 am

Twilight wrote:
R1111 wrote:Attainment of Lokuthara Jhana is attainment of Stream Entry.
What in the world is Lokuthara Jhana ??????
Stars with N ends with an A, 7 letters and Its not in the World!
Last edited by R1111 on Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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aflatun
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by aflatun » Sat Jan 21, 2017 3:04 am

Twilight wrote:Yes, how is that helping in understanding consciousness ? It helps in developing mindfulness, that is what it's supposed to do.
This has been pointed to in various ways, but for Mahasi the goal is to be able to note all six sense doors continuously and without interruption, and see the three characteristics therein clearly and in real time. As he describes it the speed and clarity of noting reach a velocity and precision where "verbal" noting would be too slow and cumbersome to accommodate.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

R1111
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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by R1111 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:43 pm

Rattana Sutta, Here The Buddha describes the Stream Enterer to Non-Human beings as i understood it. translated from the Pali by
Piyadassi Thera
9. "Those who realized the Noble Truths well taught by him who is profound in wisdom (the Buddha), even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they will not take an eighth existence (in the realm of sense spheres).[6] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

10. "With his gaining of insight he abandons three states of mind, namely self-illusion, doubt, and indulgence in meaningless rites and rituals, should there be any. He is also fully freed from the four states of woe, and therefore, incapable of committing the six major wrongdoings.[7] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

11. "Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana).[8] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by _anicca_ » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:50 am

Twilight wrote:Yes, how is that helping in understanding consciousness ? It helps in developing mindfulness, that is what it's supposed to do.
After sustained practice, the mental noting falls away leaving only awareness of phenomena as anicca, dukkha, and anatta.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by Twilight » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:54 am

After sustained practice, the mental noting falls away leaving only awareness of phenomena as anicca, dukkha, and anatta.
And how is that helping understand how consciousness and the other aggregate are working ? Sounds to me like a mechanic staring at the car engine expecting to understand how it works by just staring at it. Like a dog at a calendar. And you are staring at form. How do you understand consciousness by simply observing form without doing any kind of contemplation ? How is this different than Zen ?
Last edited by Twilight on Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by _anicca_ » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:56 am

Twilight wrote:
After sustained practice, the mental noting falls away leaving only awareness of phenomena as anicca, dukkha, and anatta.
And how is that helping understand how consciousness and the other aggregate are working ? Sounds to me like a mechanic staring at the car engine expecting to understand how it works by just staring at it. Like a dog at a calendar. And you are staring at form. How do you understand consciousness by simply observing form without doing any kind of contemplation ?
If you want to understand the mind, first you have to observe it.
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self."

:buddha1:

http://vipassanameditation.asia

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by Twilight » Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:59 am

Observe it with wisdom, with discernment. Understand how the aggregates work and interact with each other. You won't understand anything without actively trying to understand. You'll be like staring at a wall. People during Buddha times have been doing this kind of stuff and many other and have not achieved enlightenment. For how Buddha achieved enlightenment, check this topic : http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=28707
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by SarathW » Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:57 am

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Sotapanna and five precepts

Post by R1111 » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:54 pm

General:
This has come up in numerous threads but no conclusions has been reached, i want to adress all of the material previously presented.
Here i attempt to find definitions and interperet the passages, i welcome everyone to put their objective hat on and leave a comment.
Following are the key words as of greater(Xa) and lesser(Xb) importance:
Greater Importance
1a. Silabatta
2a. Heedlesness/Negligence
3a. Unbroken morality
4a. Four Factors of Stream-Entry
5a. The virtues dear to the noble ones" (ariyakantani silani)
6a. Five Precepts
Lesser Importance
1b. Subside and Abstain
2b. Concentration - in context of relevant material. In regards to Fetter of material existence and craving.

1a. Imho meaning "Precepts" as in Moral virtues leading to Non-Regret and Concentration and Ceremonial Practices, Sila + -- bbata [=vata2] good works and ceremonial observances https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=28996 Meaning of Fetter.
More on breaking precept: https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.p ... 80#p423854
2a. from Bhikkhu Bodhi's http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_36.html
To dispel any doubt about his reasons for prescribing this precept, the Buddha has written the explanation into the rule itself: one is to refrain from the use of intoxicating drinks and drugs because they are the cause of heedlessness (pamada). Heedlessness means moral recklessness, disregard for the bounds between right and wrong.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html defined, this is a reference to Buddha's Words.
Also same explaination found in the AN 4.99 Sikkha Sutta: Trainings
3a. People are most welcome to present evidence for the not being able to break any of the 5 precepts, i could not find any for the 2,3,4 and 5th. Furthermore if he does not kill or wishes others to kill that is an unbroken virtue it itself, which would be dear to the Noble Ones.
4a. Unwavering confidence In The Triple Jewel and the virtues dear to the noble ones—unbroken, untorn, unblemished, unmottled, freeing, praised by the wise, ungrasped, leading to concentration. (anybody claiming this refers to never breaking the 5 precepts needs to produce evidence)
5a. Also be related to 3a
6a. Referred to as Panca Sila, https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.41 also related to Five faultless gifts (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... asila.html ) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html) & are seemingly related to Five Fearful Animosities https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.41
1b. "Subsides" should be straight forward, i assume the Pali isnt tricky here. https://suttacentral.net/en/sn12.41
2b. Following passage should be illustrative of importance of Concentration in regards to abandoning Ill-will and Sensual Desire
MN 14 wrote:"Even though a disciple of the noble ones has clearly seen as it actually is with right discernment that sensuality is of much stress, much despair, & greater drawbacks, still — if he has not attained a rapture & pleasure apart from sensuality, apart from unskillful mental qualities, or something more peaceful than that — he can be tempted by sensuality.
Relevant on Sotapanna:
"Bhikkhus, the sotapannas do not kill, they do not wish others to get killed.
Dhammapada Story v.124
Statement as it is leaves open the possibility for suicide!
"And what is the individual who is a bodily witness?... I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. ...
"And what is the individual attained to view? ... I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness. ...
"And what is the individual released through conviction? .... I say that he has a task to do with heedfulness.
Clearly heedlesness is a problem.
MN 48. http://tipitaka.wikia.com/wiki/Kosambiya_Sutta "Bhikkhus, what is that unique characteristic of one come to righteousness or view? When he does any wrong, it becomes manifest to him, and he instantly goes to the Teacher or a wise co-associate in the holy life and declares and makes it manifest and makes amends for future restrain, like a toddler who is slow to stand and lie would tred on a burning piece of charcoal and would instantly pull away from it
So he does offenses that need confession fwiw.
Ratana Sutta... 9. ... even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they will not take an eighth existence (in the realm of sense spheres).[6] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness
... 11. "Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana).[8] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.
The words exceedingly heedless are interesting in the context of discussion.
Sumanā obtained the Second Fruit of the Path, but remained unmarried. Overwhelmed with disappointment because of her failure in finding a husband, she refused to eat and died and was reborn in Tusita (DhA.i.128f)
He is also fully freed from the four states of woe, and therefore, incapable of committing the six major wrongdoings.
Abhithanani; i. matricide, ii. patricide, iii. the murder of arahants (the Consummate Ones), iv. the shedding of the Buddha's blood, v. causing schism in the Sangha, and vi. pernicious false beliefs (niyata micca ditthi).
Bahudhatuka Sutta MN. 115 Quote: “He understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could deprive his mother of life ― there is no such possibility.’
Some people say that he cant break 5 precepts because 5 precepts are said to lead to hell, however i think this is rather naive and is rebuked by the Sutta called "Who Took To Drink" and other instances:
Here bolded part describing Non Enlightened desciples!
"Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But perhaps he has these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. And the things proclaimed by the Tathaagata are moderately approved by him with insight. That man does not go to the realm of hungry ghosts, to the downfall, to the evil way, to states of woe.

"Take the case of another man. He is not even endowed with unwavering devotion to the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha. He is not joyous and swift in wisdom and has not gained release. But he has just these things: the faculty of faith, of energy, of mindfulness, of concentration, of wisdom. Yet if he has merely faith, merely affection for the Tathaagata, that man, too, does not go to... states of woe.[7]

"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners... bound for enlightenment, how much more so then Sarakaani the Sakyan![/b]
Visudhimagga:
Visuddhimagga: In the case of the wrongnesses, wrong view, false speech, wrong action, and
wrong [685] livelihood are eliminated by the first knowledge. Wrong thinking,
malicious speech, and harsh speech are eliminated by the third knowledge.
And here only volition is to be understood as speech. Gossip, wrong effort,
wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration, wrong deliverance, and wrong
knowledge are eliminated by the fourth knowledge.
Strangely no mention of The Second Path nor is it specified which wrong action is abandoned. In any way it is the most support one will find for a Sotapanna Lay or Monastic being unable to break 5 precepts and this is not explicit nor is this in the Tipitaka.
Vsm: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... on2011.pdf

Conclusion:
As i see it, Not being able to break any of the Five theory doesnt have much foothold and furthermore is imo an evil view which doesn't go well with the Sutta Pitaka.
Why is it evil?
Because it opens up for denouncing them because their virtue does not seem Holy enough, denying their Attainment!
If one held view that It is possible for them to break #2,3,4&5 then it is not a big deal because that would not lead to saying "You dont have the Attainment".
"Monks, these two slander the Tathagata. Which two? He who explains what was not said or spoken by the Tathagata as said or spoken by the Tathagata. And he who explains what was said or spoken by the Tathagata as not said or spoken by the Tathagata. These are two who slander the Tathagata."
Last edited by R1111 on Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:14 pm, edited 15 times in total.

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