Sotapanna and five precepts

[rohana]

Source: (http://nanavira.xtreemhost.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=50" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

Why am I glad that you are shocked to learn that a sekha bhikkhu can be fond of talk (and worse)? Because it gives me the opportunity of insisting that unless you bring the sekha down to earth the Buddha's Teaching can never be a reality for you. So long as you are content to put the sotāpanna on a pedestal well out of reach, it can never possibly occur to you that it is your duty to become sotāpanna yourself (or at least to make the attempt) here and now in this very life; for you will simply take it as axiomatic that you cannot succeed.
...

On that note, I believe there's a commentarial story about Anāthapindika's daughter who became a sakadāgāmi but was severely distressed over not being able to find a husband that she stopped eating and eventually died? Also, Anāthapindika, meeting his daughter on her deathbed, is unable to recognize her attainment.

Edit: Here's the story:

• The son, in spite of his father's efforts, showed no piety until he was finally bribed to go to the vihāra and listen to the Buddha's preaching. The daughters, on the other hand, were most dutiful and helped their father in ministering to the monks. The two elder ones attained to the First Fruit of the Path, married, and went to live with the families of their husbands. Sumanā obtained the Second Fruit of the Path, but remained unmarried. Overwhelmed with disappointment because of her failure in finding a husband, she refused to eat and died and was reborn in Tusita (DhA.i.128f).
  Anathapindika

• Anathapindika and Visakha were so intimately acquainted with the
  needs of the monks that they were much sought after to accompany
  those who desired to carry alms to the monks. When Visakha left her
  house, she appointed a granddaughter to dispense alms in her place.
  Anathapindika assigned a similar duty to his oldest daughter. The
  latter attained the Fruit of Conversion, married, and was succeeded by
  a younger sister. She also attained the Fruit of Conversion, married,
  and was succeeded by the youngest daughter Sumana. (151)
  
  Sumana attained the Fruit of the Second Path, but remained un-
  married. Thereat she sickened, would eat nothing, and sent for her
  father. When the latter asked her what was the matter, she addressed
  him as "youngest brother," and died. Anathapindika, unable to quiet
  his grief, went to the Teacher and told him what had happened.
  " Why do you grieve ? " said the Teacher. " Know you not that death
  is certain for all V "I know that, Venerable sir ; but my daughter
  talked incoherently when she died, addressing me as 'youngest
  brother.' " " She spoke quite correctly," replied the Teacher, " for she
  had attained the Fruit of the Second Path, while you have attained
  only the Fruit of Conversion." 27 Thereupon the Teacher informed
  Anathapindika that Sumana had been reborn in the Tusita heaven,
  and pronounced Stanza 18, at the conclusion of which many were
  established in the Fruits. (151-4)
  Buddhaghōṣa's Dhammapada Commentary

So was it that Anāthapindika did not recognize any attainment in her daughter at all, or just did not recognize that she had a higher attainment than him?

[Chi]

I think it depends on how picky one is about the precepts. The precepts can go infinitely deep.

For example, if somebody asks a sotapanna, "How are you?" and the sotapanna is not feeling well or is distressed, and he answers, "good" or "well," is he breaking a precept?

Or if a sotapanna, or anybody for that matter, holds back speech, which is beneficial and truthful, is he breaking a precept?

[SarathW]

Another strong support for observing precepts:

The four factors of stream-entry, briefly stated, are as follows:
1) buddhe aveccappasadena samannagato;
2) dhamme aveccappasadena samannagato;
3) saghe aveccappasadena samannagato;
4) ariyakantehi silehi samannagato.25
1) He is endowed with confidence born of understanding in the Buddha;
2) he is endowed with confidence born of understanding in the Dhamma;
3) he is endowed with confidence born of understanding in the Sagha;
4) he is endowed with virtues dear to the Noble Ones.
The stream-winner has a deep faith in the Buddha, in the Dhamma and
in the Sagha that is born of understanding. His virtue is also of a higher
order, since it is well based on that faith. So in the definition of the faculty
of faith we have an echo of chanda-iddhipada.
P669
http://www.seeingthroughthenet.net/file ... ed_VII.pdf

This is supported by the following Sutta:

"He/she is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Another Sutta to support the OP:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

[SarathW]

Don't remember the sutta but what I understand is that the things which a sotapanna can't do are :

1. Patricide
2. Matricide
3. Hurting a Buddha ( kill nobody can)
4. Cause schism in Buddha's order
5. Kill an Arhant

This are probably the worst crimes which a sotapanna can't do. On other things they may commit but will immediately recognise the mistake and make amends.

Regards

Parth

Ratana Sutta

At the moment of attaining sight,
one abandons three things:
identity-views, uncertainty,
& any attachment to precepts & practices.[3]
One is completely released
from the four states of deprivation,[4]
and incapable of committing
the six great wrongs.[5]
This, too, is an exquisite treasure in the Sangha.
By this truth may there be well-being.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#fnt-5

5.The six great wrongs: murdering one's mother, murdering one's father, murdering an arahant (fully Awakened individual), wounding a Buddha, causing a schism in the Sangha, or choosing anyone other than a Buddha as one's foremost teacher.

[SarathW]

“When, householder, these five fearful animosities have subsided in a noble disciple, and he possesses these four factors of stream-entry, and he has clearly seen and thoroughly penetrated with wisdom this noble method, if he wishes he could by himself declare of himself: ‘I am one finished with hell, finished with the animal realm, finished with the domain of ghosts, finished with the plane of misery, the bad destinations, the nether world. I am a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as my destination.


http://dhammawheel.com/posting.php?mode ... 13&t=14256" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Cittasanto]

According to Narada’s Manual of Abhidhamma (page 42) it says:

"A Sotàpanna (Stream-Winner) eradicates the 1st,
2nd, 5th, 6th, and 11th types of consciousness as he has
destroyed the two Fetters (Saüyojana)—Sakkàyadiññhi
(Self-illusion) and Vicikicchà (Doubts)."

Is it a necessary prerequisite that Sotapanna/Chula Sorapanna person strictly observing five precepts? What will happen to a Sotapanna person if he break one of the precepts?

Link: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A sotapanna can not break the precepts, but there maybe exceptions in appearance. I.e. They take something not freely given without knowing they picked it up, or mistook it for their own. The precepts have causes and conditions which must be met for a breach to be fulfilled.

A sotapanna simply would not break the precept without reason. There are Arahant's who originated some of the Vinaya rules after all.

Kind Regards
Cittasanto

[acinteyyo]

The Sarakaani Sutta comes to my mind.

Sarakaani Sutta: Sarakaani (Who Took to Drink) SN 55.24

[2600htz]

Hello everyone:

Being reading comments where is stated that they can break precepts (like the drunken sotapanna Sarakaani), others where is stated that they are saints, never to be reborn lower than humans in part because they dont break precepts for any reason.

I wonder whats the theravada view on that.

Thanks!.

[Polar Bear]

You'll get mixed answers:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14256" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See here for a good deal of information on stream-entry.

Another perspective:

SOTĀPANNA: The ‘Stream-Enterer’: One who has entered the stream leading to nibbàna. One who is freed from the first three fetters of self-view, sceptical doubt and attachment to precepts and practices. He has unshakeable faith in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha, and is incapable of breaking the five moral precepts. He will be reborn seven times, at the utmost, and not in a state lower than the human realm.

http://www.watmarpjan.org/en/pdf/en-SOTA-LOW.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I couldn't locate a specific theravada position for you in the Visuddhimagga after searching some key terms for just a few minutes but check it out if you're interested: Visuddhimagga There is this quote though from page 10:

Likewise the reason for the states of stream-entry and once-return is shown by virtue.

From the Vibhanga of the Abhidhamma:

(The five precepts) Are not to be abandoned by the first path. Bottom of Page

What this abhidhamma passage means is maybe up for debate although it seems to indicate the sotapanna would not break the 5 precepts. I wonder if the Kathāvatthu has anything to say on this matter but searching through it would be quite a chore as I'm not sure which part would be the best place to search for an answer. Perhaps Venerable Dhammanando would have an idea.

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

The story of Sarakani the Sakyan is discussed in this earlier thread.

[SarathW]

Was Sarakaani used to drink alcohol before he became a Stapanna?
Howlong it will take a person to become sober after taking alcohol?
Do we have to assume Sarakaani was sober when he attain Sotapanna?
Can we attain Sotapanna if we are not sober?

[dhammarelax]

Hello everyone:

Being reading comments where is stated that they can break precepts (like the drunken sotapanna Sarakaani), others where is stated that they are saints, never to be reborn lower than humans in part because they dont break precepts for any reason.

I wonder whats the theravada view on that.

Thanks!.

Yes he can, the fetters he is left behind are 1) belief on a self 2) the rituals will awaken you 3)he is sure the Buddha was fully awakened.

Still gets hate lust delusion, and since those are the roots of the breach of the precepts he still can do it.

Smile
dhammarelax

[Ben]

Hello everyone:

Being reading comments where is stated that they can break precepts (like the drunken sotapanna Sarakaani), others where is stated that they are saints, never to be reborn lower than humans in part because they dont break precepts for any reason.

I wonder whats the theravada view on that.

Thanks!.

Yes he can, the fetters he is left behind are 1) belief on a self 2) the rituals will awaken you 3)he is sure the Buddha was fully awakened.

Still gets hate lust delusion, and since those are the roots of the breach of the precepts he still can do it.

Smile
dhammarelax

Are you absolutely sure about that?
Just because unwholesome roots are still present does not mean that one is compelled to break the precepts.

[Zom]

It is possible. Buddha sometimes speaks bluntly about things which are impossible for a stream-winner. Among these are 5 antarika-kammas (killing father, mother, etc), impossibility to consider something as permanent or "a self", and some other things. Nothing is said, however, that it is impossible for him to kill, for example, an insect, or, for example, to speak rude words (which is also a breaking of 5 precepts). Thus, it seems like he is capable to break them, but not to the extent when he will fall into lower realms because of that.

[User156079]

del