Aggregates v. clinging aggregates

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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daverupa
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Re: Aggregates v. clinging aggregates

Post by daverupa » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:21 am

vinasp wrote:But the creation of this self must be endlessly repeated if it is to
continue to 'exist'. So one must conceive these five things as mine in the future, in
the next moment, or the present 'self' will disappear.
Since we know that
"Whatever aggregate is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: That is called the aggregate.
we don't need to worry about continuity. The conceiving occurs with respect to taking any of the aggregates as a self, which is to say anything seen, heard, sensed, or cognized. Now, as well as cognizing the present one can be cognizing past or future, through memory or imagination, and when one does that one remembers and/or imagines the aggregates.

So whether one perceives these aggregates as past, present, or future, a puthujjana conceives about, in, from that, or else takes it as a self (asmi-mana & sakkaya-ditthi), and delights therein. (MN 1)

No self continues; one is simply rendered a being if there is clinging to the aggregates. If it did so continue, and nibbana stopped that self, that would be an annihilationist view.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]

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Re: Aggregates v. clinging aggregates

Post by MidGe » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:46 am

According to the Abhidhammatha Sangaha:

... The five aggregates of clinging are called aggregates of clinging because they constitute the objects of clinging...

... all components of the five aggregates that enter into range of the four types of clinging* are called aggregates of clinging. This includes the entire aggregate of materiality and the four mental aggregates of the mundane plane. The four mental aggregates of the supramundane plane are not aggregates of clinging because they entirely transcend the range of clinging; that is, they cannot become objects of greed or wrong views.

[Extracts from " Abhidhammatha Sangaha - Comprehenive Manual Abhidhamma - Pali Text, Translation and Explanatory Guide", Bikkhu Bodhi, general editor, First BPS Priyatti Ed 2000 (pg 285-6)]

Hoping this helps


* clinging to sense pleasures, wrong views, rites and ceremonies, and a doctrine of self

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Re: Aggregates v. clinging aggregates

Post by vinasp » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:25 am

Hi everyone,

Tanha is Not Desire and Upadana is Not Clinging.

"Monks, there are these four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second; intellectual intention the third; and consciousness the fourth. These are the four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born.

"Now, these four nutriments have what as their cause, what as their origination, what as their source, what as that which brings them into play? These four nutriments have craving as their cause, craving as their origination, craving as their source, craving as that which brings them into play.

"And this craving has what as its cause, what as its origination, what as its source, what as that which brings it into play?... Feeling...[And so forth to ignorance. SN 22.11]

Link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This clearly shows that the item 'clinging' in DO was originally the four nutriments.
The change to 'upadana' probably did not change the meaning, or the way that this item
was understood. The term 'upadana' can mean 'fuel', this is why Thanissaro translates
it as 'clinging/sustenance'. His introduction to this Sutta is worth reading. The term
translated here as 'intellectual intention' is translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi as 'mental
volition'.

The Four Foods in SN 12.63

"And how is the nutriment of intellectual intention to be regarded? Suppose there were a pit of glowing embers, deeper than a man's height, full of embers that were neither flaming nor smoking, and a man were to come along — loving life, hating death, loving pleasure, abhorring pain — and two strong men, having grabbed him by the arms, were to drag him to the pit of embers. To get far away would be that man's intention, far away would be his wish, far away would be his aspiration. Why is that? Because he would realize, 'If I fall into this pit of glowing embers, I will meet with death from that cause, or with death-like pain.' In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of intellectual intention to be regarded. When the nutriment of intellectual intention is comprehended, the three forms of craving [for sensuality, for becoming, and for non-becoming] are comprehended. When the three forms of craving are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do." [SN 12.63]

Link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From this one might think that 'intellectual intention' or 'mental volition' is the
will to live. But I think that it means the will to continue to exist as a self. When
this is understood then all three cravings are understood. The term 'tanha' (thirst)
means the volition which becomes the will to continue to exist as a self.

To exist as a self is suffering, so the thirst which perpetuates this state is called
the origin of suffering. The teachings appear to be saying that this thirst originates
from all experiences. But I think the correct understanding is, that it is all experience
which is misconceived as a self, or as related to a self, which generates this thirst.

What Does This Mean For the Aggregates?

The five clinging aggregates are everything which is misconceived as a self, or as
related to a self. By which I mean the misconceptions themselves, not the actual things
which are being misconceived. When these misconceptions cease then thirst and suffering
cease.

The five aggregates are what remains after the five clinging aggregates have ceased.
These are related to the conceit 'I am' and cease when it ceases.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Aggregates v. clinging aggregates

Post by vinasp » Wed Sep 19, 2012 8:45 am

Hi everyone,

Gombrich on the aggregates, from What the Buddha Thought, 2009.

Karma is not the only element of continuity in our lives. Those lives
have five sets of components, and each of these five sets is denoted
by the term which above was translated by the English word 'aggregate'.
In fact, the word should not be detached from a word that precedes it
in a Pali compound, upadana-khandha, and that compound is complicated,
because it is a pun of which one meaning is a metaphor:'a mass of
burning fuel'. In this latter sense it is part of the same metaphorical
structure as nirvana (P: nibbana), which means the going out of a flame.
I shall explain this metaphor in Chapter 8. For the moment, we need only
note that these five masses of burning fuel are, metaphorically, the five
sets of processes which constitute our lives. In the traditional order,
these five are: interactions with the physical world through the five
senses, feelings (as of pleasure and pain), apperceptions (perceptions
which serve to identify objects), samkhara and consciousness.[page 12.]

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Aggregates v. clinging aggregates

Post by vinasp » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:35 pm

Hi everyone,

This discourse (SN 22.44) uses the term 'sakkaya', translated here as 'identity'.
Elsewhere (eg. MN 44) sakkaya is said to be the five clinging aggregates.

"At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, I will teach you the way leading to the origination of identity and the way leading to the cessation of identity. Listen to that ...

"And what, bhikkhus , is the way leading to the origination of identity ? Here, bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling ... regards form as self ...feeling as self ...perception as self ...volitional formations as self ... consciousness as self ... or self as in consciousness. This, bhikkhus, is called the way leading to the origination of identity. When it is said, "The way leading to the origination of identity", the meaning here is this : a way of regarding things that leads to the origination of suffering.

"And what, bhikkhus, is the way leading to the cessation of identity ? Here, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple ... does not regard form as self ...nor feeling as self ...nor perception as self ... nor volitional formations as self ... nor consciousness as self ... nor self as in consciousness. This, bhikkhus, is called the way leading to the cessation of identity. When it is said, "The way leading to the cessation of identity", the meaning here is this : a way of regarding things that leads to the cessation of suffering".

[The Connected Discourses of the Buddha. Bhikkhu Bodhi. page 883. - SN 22.44 - The Way.]

So, regarding form as self (and the rest) is the way leading to the origination of
the five clinging aggregates.

And not regarding form etc. as self is the way leading to the cessation of the five
clinging aggregates.

But, surely, the form, feeling (and so forth) which are so regarded, are already the
five clinging aggregates.[or are they the five aggregates?]

So, regarding the five clinging aggregates as self, is the way leading to the origination
of the five clinging aggregates.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Aggregates v. clinging aggregates

Post by cjmacie » Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:04 pm

Referring to the discussion here (“Aggregates v. clinging aggregates”, Wed Aug 29, 2012 to Wed Sep 19, 2012), which I just found. Having scanned through it all, I missed finding any mention of the following (also not found in Wikipedia on aggregates, or anywhere else (so far)):

Visudhimagga (Nanamoli) section XIV.219 (p.544) and footnote 82. (in the 1997 editition from “The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation”)

The Vism text, under the topic is “why 5 aggregates?” (“(c)” is third reason why):

“219 (c) And also, since those other [sorts of aggregates] stated as the five aggregates of things beginning with virtue 82 [footnote] are comprised within the formations aggregate, they are included here too. Therefore they are stated as five because they include the other sorts.”

Note: listed are “the five aggregates of things beginning with virtue”, which, however, are included within the 4th conventional khandhas – formations. In the last sentence, “…stated as five” I take as referring to these, the conventional (commonly understood) khandhas, not those “beginning with virtue”.

Nanamoli's footnote:

“82. The aggregates of virtue, concentration, understanding, liberation, and the knowledge and vision of liberation (S.I,99), etc.”

“S.I,99” appears to be sn3.24 in the notation system used here, as in B.Bodhi’s (BB) translation on p.191 (Book I, Chapter III, #24, or Third Subchapter # 4 – Archery)

The Pali (from Chattha Sangayana Tipitaka 4.0):

3. Kosalasaṃyuttaṃ

____3. Tatiyavaggo

________4. Issattasuttaṃ
‘‘Evameva kho, mahārāja, yasmā kasmā cepi [yasmā cepi (sī. syā. kaṃ. ka.)] kulā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajito hoti, so ca hoti pañcaṅgavippahīno pañcaṅgasamannāgato, tasmiṃ dinnaṃ mahapphalaṃ hoti. Katamāni pañcaṅgāni pahīnāni honti? Kāmacchando pahīno hoti, byāpādo pahīno hoti, thinamiddhaṃ pahīnaṃ hoti, uddhaccakukkuccaṃ pahīnaṃ hoti, vicikicchā pahīnā hoti. Imāni pañcaṅgāni pahīnāni honti. Katamehi pañcahaṅgehi samannāgato hoti? Asekkhena sīlakkhandhena samannāgato hoti, asekkhena samādhikkhandhena samannāgato hoti, asekkhena paññākkhandhena samannāgato hoti, asekkhena vimuttikkhandhena samannāgato hoti, asekkhena vimuttiñāṇadassanakkhandhena samannāgato hoti. Imehi pañcahaṅgehi samannāgato hoti. Iti pañcaṅgavippahīne pañcaṅgasamannāgate dinnaṃ mahapphala’’nti. Idamavoca bhagavā…pe… satthā –

BB translation (pp.190-191) – emphases added:
… when a person has gone forth from the household … he has abandoned (pañcaṅgasamannāgato) five factors and possess (pañcaṅgavippahīno) five factors, then what is given to him is of great fruit. …[the 5 factors abandoned are listed, i.e. the 5 hindrances]… What five factors does he possess? He possesses the aggregate of virtue (sīlakkhandhena) of one beyond training, the aggregate of concentration (samādhikkhandhena) of one beyond training, the aggregate of wisdom (paññākkhandhena) of one beyond training, the aggregate of liberation (vimuttikkhandhena) of one beyond training, the aggregate of the knowledge and vision of liberation (vimuttiñāṇadassanakkhandhena) of one beyond training. …

Note “5 factors (pañc-aṅga)”, that didn’t appear in searches for “five aggregates”
(PALIENG.DBP aṅga = nt. 1. a constituent part; 2. a limb; 3. quality.

As for sn22.048 (Thanissaro Bhikkhu (Than-Geof)) = BB pp.886-887, & fn 65 pp.1058-1059, which also refers to Vism 477-478, i.e. XIV 211-220 pp. 541-544 (as quoted above)

BB (in footnote 65, p. 1058f) reasons “On first consideration it would seem that the ‘bare aggregates’ are those of the arahant, who has eliminated the asava and upadana”, that is, are anasave anupadaniya. But he then argues that that would be inaccurate, referring to his essay “Aggregates and Clinging Aggregates” (Buddhist Review 1 (1976): 91-102), where he lays this out in great detail.

BB, as well as Than-Geof, know the Pali Canon so well (and I don’t) they must be aware of the sn3.24 passage, and probably the Vism passage also. Perhaps “the five aggregates of things beginning with virtue” aren’t that significant, after all. I was struck by that notion, however, when reading the Vism, and it stuck with me ever since, brought out again in running across this discussion.

Commenting on misc. passages from the thread of discussion in August-September:

-- by vinasp » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:30 pm

2. Is there only one set of aggregates, or are there two sets?

Nanamoli, interpreting Vism, seems to find (at least) two, but the second is subsumed in the first -- c.f. above citations.

-- by reflection » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:26 am
“…If we can get one thing out of that sutta, it's that the clinging-aggregates are a subset of the aggregates and there is no direct mention of arahant-aggregates or something like that….”

Sn3.24 could be taken as such a direct mention, but admittedly outside of the Khandhasutta.

-- by reflection » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:35 pm
(Quoting Than-Geof) "In seeing six rewards, it's enough motivation for a monk to establish the perception of stress with regard to all fabrications without exception.”

Worth pointing out dukkha has broader meanings than just “suffering”, as in, for instance, Than-Geof’s preference for “stress”. (And BB lays discusses meanings of dukkha in the last pages of his 1976 article on aggregates.) To extend it in the context of the “5 khandhas (factors) beginning with virtue” (alla Nanamoli), we could consider dukkha in the sense of “anything not achieving ultimate satisfaction,” which would be all conditioned phenomena, which BB, in his article, called sankhara-dukkhata. Arahantship has destroyed the last 3 fetters – conceit, restlessness, ignorance – the freedom from restlessness might so be considered adukkha – no more jitters in the quest for satisfaction in mundane khandha-phenoemena. But then again, maybe total adukkha comes only with parinibbana? It definitely occurs then, the question being is it “only” then? (BB, again seems to indicate so.)

As reflection continues to elaborate: “So it is incorrect to say all suffering stops at enlightenment; however, it does stop at parinibbana. …”

-- by vinasp » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:08 pm
“Bhikkhu Bodhi translates 'upadana' as 'clinging', in most cases.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu translates with both meanings: clinging/sustenance.”

Than-Geof has also mentioned (e.g. somewhere, I think, either in “The Shape of Suffering” or “The Paradox of Becomming”) that tanha has the connotation of thirst, and upadana that of nutriment, food. (This was also throughly brought out near the end of the whole discussion.)

On a different note:

-- by vinasp » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:26 pm

[My comment: is a tathagata, while living, a being?]


Long story -- c.f. Alexander Piatigorsky, “The Buddhist Philosophy of Thought”, Curzon Press (Barnes & Noble Books), 1984; ISBN UK 0 7007 0159 1; US 0 389 20266 5.

This book is difficult to find, and more difficult to read (he uses phenomenology, meta-philosophy, meta-psychology,…), but can be well worth it. One issue he cogently insists upon is that imputing any sense of “psychology” to the Pali Canon is no more than a projection of Western ways of thinking, an indication of how difficult it is for Western mundane thought to get beneath the surface there. He takes Mrs. Rhys-David to task for taking this route in the Dhammasangani translation. In this context he examines closely the concepts of being, person, etc.

Relates to (Brentano, Husserl / Phenomenology) later mentioned at:
by vinasp » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:37 am
“This interpretation is similar to the philosophy of mind called 'intentionality' which, in its modern form, was originated by Franz Brentano.”

Topic further elaborated in:
by vinasp » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:08 am

-- P.S. What does “DO” refer to?

-- PPS. If the 5 clinging khandhas were to line up with the 5 khandhas beginning with virtue (above), it looks like:

form - virtue
feeling - concentration
perception - wisdom/understanding
formations - liberation
consciousness - knowledge and vision of liberation

Looks like some rough correspondences, but perhaps not.

Chris Macie

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Re: Aggregates v. clinging aggregates

Post by SarathW » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:13 am

:goodpost:
I found that the attahed link is very helpful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up%C4%81d%C4%81na" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


I appreciate your question as this help us to investigate Dhamma in details. However we should not fall in to the pitfall to think our existence can be explained in various categories. Dependent origination should be taken as a integrated circle (or ball/ circuit).
Say you ask me to describe a human head. From the front I see eyes, nose, part of the ears, mouth etc. From the back I see hair and part of the ears and neck.
From top, bottom ,side and inside I see different things.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Aggregates v. clinging aggregates

Post by vinasp » Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:31 am

Hi cjmacie,

What an interesting first post! Welcome to DhammaWheel.

You raise a number of points which I will try to respond to, but first we need to be
clear about the meaning of the term 'aggregate' (khandha).

The (old) Pali-English Dictionary entry for 'khandha' [edited]:

Khandha [Sk. skandha] --
I. Crude meaning: bulk, massiveness (gross) substance.
A. esp. used (a) of an elephant: ... (b) of a person: the shoulder or back: ... (c) of a tree: the trunk. ... (d) as technical term in exegetical literature: section, chapter, lit. material ...

B. More general as denoting bulk ( -- ˚); e. g. aggi˚ a great mass of fire ...; udaka˚ a mass of water (i. e. ocean)...; puñña˚ a great accumulation of merit ...; bhoga˚ a store of wealth ...

II. Applied meaning. --
A. ( -- ˚) the body of, a collection of, mass, or parts of; in collective sense "all that is comprised under"; forming the substance of. <->

(a) dukkha˚; all that is comprised under "dukkha," all that goes to make up or forms the substance, the idea of "ill." Most prominent in phrase kevalassa dukkhakhandhassa samudaya and nirodha (the origin or destruction of all that is suffering) with ref. to the paṭiccasamuppāda the chain of causal existence ...

(b) lobha˚; dosa˚ moha˚ the three ingredients or integrations of greed, suffering and bewilderment, lit. "the big bulk or mass of greed" ...

(c) vayo˚; a division of age, part of age, as threefold: purima˚, majjhima˚, pacchima ...

(d) sīla (etc.) kh˚ the 3 (or 5 groups or parts which constitute the factors of right living (dhamma), viz. (1) sīla˚ the group dealing with the practice of morality; (2) samādhi˚ that dealing with the development of concentration; (3) paññā˚ that dealing with the development of true wisdom. They are also known under the terms of sīla -- sampadā, citta˚ paññā˚ D i.172 sq.; see sīla. -- D i.206; Nett 64 sq.; 126 tīhi dhammehi samannāgato "possessed of the three qualities," viz. sīla -- kkhandhesu, etc. It 51; cp A i.291; v.326. tīhi khandhehi . . . aṭṭhangiko maggo sangahito M i.301; sīlakkhandhaŋ, etc. paripūreti "to fulfil the sīla -- group" A i.125; ii.20, iii.15 sq. These 3 are completed to a set of 5 by (4) vimutti the group dealing with the attainment of emancipation and (5) vimutti -- ñāṇa -- dassana ˚the group dealing with the realization of the achievement of emancipation. As 1 -- 4 only at D iii.229 (misprint puñña for paññā); cp A i.125. As 5 at S i.99=A i.162; S v.162; A iii.134 271; v.16 (all loc.=S i.99); It 107, 108; Nd2 under sīla. ...

B. (absolute) in individual sense: constituent element, factor, substantiality. More especially as khandhā (pl.) the elements or substrata of sensory existence, sensorial aggregates which condition the appearance of life in any form. Their character according to quality and value of life and body is evanescent fraught with ills & leading to rebirth. Paraphrased by Bdhgh. as rāsi, heap, e. g. Asl. 141; Vibh A 1 f.; cf B. Psy. 42. 1. Unspecified. They are usually enumerated in the foll. stereotyped set of 5: rūpa˚; (material qualities), vedanā (feeling), saññā (perception), sankhārā (coefficients of consciousness), viññāṇa (consciousness). ... [End Quote]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, aggregate (khandha) is also used in the sense of a mass, heap, or collection of
mental qualities. But there are not usually five such masses, SN 3.24 seems to be one of the few exceptions, and can be a cause of confusion. These five are an extension of the three 'heaps of qualities' in MN 44.11, the heap (aggregate) of virtue, the heap of concentration, and the heap of wisdom.

Regards, Vincent.

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Re: Aggregates v. clinging aggregates

Post by SarathW » Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:09 pm

Is that correct that if I say that worldly persons (Putujjana) are five aggregates and Arhants are non clinging five aggregates?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Aggregates v. clinging aggregates

Post by Dmytro » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:00 am

Hi Vincent,
vinasp wrote: So, regarding form as self (and the rest) is the way leading to the origination of
the five clinging aggregates.

And not regarding form etc. as self is the way leading to the cessation of the five
clinging aggregates.
'Upadana' from the 'upadana-khandha' compound (usually mistranslated as 'clinging-aggregates'), actually means 'appropriation'.

(see the thread Pali Term: Upādāna)

So, regarding form as self is the way leading to the origination of the five appropriated aggregates.

Best wishes, Dmytro

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Re: Aggregates v. clinging aggregates

Post by Dmytro » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:05 am

Hi,
SarathW wrote:Is that correct that if I say that worldly persons (Putujjana) are five aggregates and Arhants are non clinging five aggregates?
Not at all.

See:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .niza.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"But if one doesn't stay obsessed with form, monk, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified.

"If one doesn't stay obsessed with feeling...

"If one doesn't stay obsessed with perception...

"If one doesn't stay obsessed with fabrications...

"If one doesn't stay obsessed with consciousness, that's not what one is measured by. Whatever one isn't measured by, that's not how one is classified.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Even so, Vaccha, any physical form by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of form, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply.

"Any feeling... Any perception... Any mental fabrication...

"Any consciousness by which one describing the Tathagata would describe him: That the Tathagata has abandoned, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Freed from the classification of consciousness, Vaccha, the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the sea. 'Reappears' doesn't apply. 'Does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply. 'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you read Pali:
http://dhamma.ru/forum/index.php?topic= ... 5#msg12185" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Aggregates v. clinging aggregates

Post by Dmytro » Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:11 am

Hi Vincent,
vinasp wrote:"Monks, there are these four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second; intellectual intention the third; and consciousness the fourth. These are the four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born.

"Now, these four nutriments have what as their cause, what as their origination, what as their source, what as that which brings them into play? These four nutriments have craving as their cause, craving as their origination, craving as their source, craving as that which brings them into play.

"And this craving has what as its cause, what as its origination, what as its source, what as that which brings it into play?... Feeling...[And so forth to ignorance. SN 22.11]

Link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This clearly shows that the item 'clinging' in DO was originally the four nutriments.
Craving is the source for four nutriments (ahara), and also for appropriation (upadana).

See the diagram http://dhamma.ru/lib/paticcas.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards, Dmytro

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