Referring to the discussion here (“Aggregates v. clinging aggregates”, Wed Aug 29, 2012 to Wed Sep 19, 2012), which I just found. Having scanned through it all, I missed finding any mention of the following (also not found in Wikipedia on aggregates, or anywhere else (so far)):
Visudhimagga (Nanamoli) section XIV.219 (p.544) and footnote 82. (in the 1997 editition from “The Corporate Body of the Buddha Educational Foundation”)
The Vism text, under the topic is “why 5 aggregates?” (“(c)” is third reason why):
“219 (c) And also, since those other [sorts of aggregates] stated as the five aggregates of things beginning with virtue 82 [footnote] are comprised within the formations aggregate, they are included here too. Therefore they are stated as five because they include the other sorts.”
Note: listed are “the five aggregates of things beginning with virtue”, which, however, are included within the 4th conventional khandhas – formations. In the last sentence, “…stated as five” I take as referring to these, the conventional (commonly understood) khandhas, not those “beginning with virtue”.
“82. The aggregates of virtue, concentration, understanding, liberation, and the knowledge and vision of liberation (S.I,99), etc.”
“S.I,99” appears to be sn3.24 in the notation system used here, as in B.Bodhi’s (BB) translation on p.191 (Book I, Chapter III, #24, or Third Subchapter # 4 – Archery)
The Pali (from Chattha Sangayana Tipitaka 4.0):
‘‘Evameva kho, mahārāja, yasmā kasmā cepi [yasmā cepi (sī. syā. kaṃ. ka.)] kulā agārasmā anagāriyaṃ pabbajito hoti, so ca hoti pañcaṅgavippahīno pañcaṅgasamannāgato, tasmiṃ dinnaṃ mahapphalaṃ hoti. Katamāni pañcaṅgāni pahīnāni honti? Kāmacchando pahīno hoti, byāpādo pahīno hoti, thinamiddhaṃ pahīnaṃ hoti, uddhaccakukkuccaṃ pahīnaṃ hoti, vicikicchā pahīnā hoti. Imāni pañcaṅgāni pahīnāni honti. Katamehi pañcahaṅgehi samannāgato hoti? Asekkhena sīlakkhandhena samannāgato hoti, asekkhena samādhikkhandhena samannāgato hoti, asekkhena paññākkhandhena samannāgato hoti, asekkhena vimuttikkhandhena samannāgato hoti, asekkhena vimuttiñāṇadassanakkhandhena samannāgato hoti. Imehi pañcahaṅgehi samannāgato hoti. Iti pañcaṅgavippahīne pañcaṅgasamannāgate dinnaṃ mahapphala’’nti. Idamavoca bhagavā…pe… satthā –
BB translation (pp.190-191) – emphases added:
… when a person has gone forth from the household … he has abandoned (pañcaṅgasamannāgato) five factors and possess (pañcaṅgavippahīno) five factors, then what is given to him is of great fruit. …[the 5 factors abandoned are listed, i.e. the 5 hindrances]… What five factors does he possess? He possesses the aggregate of virtue (sīlakkhandhena) of one beyond training, the aggregate of concentration (samādhikkhandhena) of one beyond training, the aggregate of wisdom (paññākkhandhena) of one beyond training, the aggregate of liberation (vimuttikkhandhena) of one beyond training, the aggregate of the knowledge and vision of liberation (vimuttiñāṇadassanakkhandhena) of one beyond training. …
Note “5 factors (pañc-aṅga)”, that didn’t appear in searches for “five aggregates”
(PALIENG.DBP aṅga = nt. 1. a constituent part; 2. a limb; 3. quality.
As for sn22.048 (Thanissaro Bhikkhu (Than-Geof)) = BB pp.886-887, & fn 65 pp.1058-1059, which also refers to Vism 477-478, i.e. XIV 211-220 pp. 541-544 (as quoted above)
BB (in footnote 65, p. 1058f) reasons “On first consideration it would seem that the ‘bare aggregates’ are those of the arahant, who has eliminated the asava and upadana”, that is, are anasave anupadaniya. But he then argues that that would be inaccurate, referring to his essay “Aggregates and Clinging Aggregates” (Buddhist Review 1 (1976): 91-102), where he lays this out in great detail.
BB, as well as Than-Geof, know the Pali Canon so well (and I don’t) they must be aware of the sn3.24 passage, and probably the Vism passage also. Perhaps “the five aggregates of things beginning with virtue” aren’t that significant, after all. I was struck by that notion, however, when reading the Vism, and it stuck with me ever since, brought out again in running across this discussion.
Commenting on misc. passages from the thread of discussion in August-September:
-- by vinasp » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:30 pm
2. Is there only one set of aggregates, or are there two sets?
Nanamoli, interpreting Vism, seems to find (at least) two, but the second is subsumed in the first -- c.f. above citations.
-- by reflection » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:26 am
“…If we can get one thing out of that sutta, it's that the clinging-aggregates are a subset of the aggregates and there is no direct mention of arahant-aggregates or something like that….”
Sn3.24 could be taken as such a direct mention, but admittedly outside of the Khandhasutta.
-- by reflection » Wed Sep 05, 2012 7:35 pm
(Quoting Than-Geof) "In seeing six rewards, it's enough motivation for a monk to establish the perception of stress with regard to all fabrications without exception.”
Worth pointing out dukkha has broader meanings than just “suffering”, as in, for instance, Than-Geof’s preference for “stress”. (And BB lays discusses meanings of dukkha in the last pages of his 1976 article on aggregates.) To extend it in the context of the “5 khandhas (factors) beginning with virtue” (alla Nanamoli), we could consider dukkha in the sense of “anything not achieving ultimate satisfaction,” which would be all conditioned phenomena, which BB, in his article, called sankhara-dukkhata. Arahantship has destroyed the last 3 fetters – conceit, restlessness, ignorance – the freedom from restlessness might so be considered adukkha – no more jitters in the quest for satisfaction in mundane khandha-phenoemena. But then again, maybe total adukkha comes only with parinibbana? It definitely occurs then, the question being is it “only” then? (BB, again seems to indicate so.)
As reflection continues to elaborate: “So it is incorrect to say all suffering stops at enlightenment; however, it does stop at parinibbana. …”
-- by vinasp » Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:08 pm
“Bhikkhu Bodhi translates 'upadana' as 'clinging', in most cases.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu translates with both meanings: clinging/sustenance.”
Than-Geof has also mentioned (e.g. somewhere, I think, either in “The Shape of Suffering” or “The Paradox of Becomming”) that tanha has the connotation of thirst, and upadana that of nutriment, food. (This was also throughly brought out near the end of the whole discussion.)
On a different note:
-- by vinasp » Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:26 pm
[My comment: is a tathagata, while living, a being?]
Long story -- c.f. Alexander Piatigorsky, “The Buddhist Philosophy of Thought”, Curzon Press (Barnes & Noble Books), 1984; ISBN UK 0 7007 0159 1; US 0 389 20266 5.
This book is difficult to find, and more difficult to read (he uses phenomenology, meta-philosophy, meta-psychology,…), but can be well worth it. One issue he cogently insists upon is that imputing any sense of “psychology” to the Pali Canon is no more than a projection of Western ways of thinking, an indication of how difficult it is for Western mundane thought to get beneath the surface there. He takes Mrs. Rhys-David to task for taking this route in the Dhammasangani translation. In this context he examines closely the concepts of being, person, etc.
Relates to (Brentano, Husserl / Phenomenology) later mentioned at:
by vinasp » Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:37 am
“This interpretation is similar to the philosophy of mind called 'intentionality' which, in its modern form, was originated by Franz Brentano.”
Topic further elaborated in:
by vinasp » Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:08 am
-- P.S. What does “DO” refer to?
-- PPS. If the 5 clinging khandhas were to line up with the 5 khandhas beginning with virtue (above), it looks like:
form - virtue
feeling - concentration
perception - wisdom/understanding
formations - liberation
consciousness - knowledge and vision of liberation
Looks like some rough correspondences, but perhaps not.