Aggregate?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:33 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

We'll have to disagree on that one then.
Otherwise, you'll have to argue that the arahant does not see, hear, taste, touch, smell or cognize.
A conclusion that makes no sense whatsoever in light of what I said about not taking it upon myself to describe the arahant's experience.
You do not have to decribe the arahant's experience. The Buddha already has, as in the text I quoted, but even more so to this point, we see the conditioning of old kamma still at play with arahants, which is most famously illustrated by what happened to Ven Angulimala after his awakening. Keeping that in mind we have the Buddha stating:
"What, monks, is old kamma?

"The eye [ear, nose tongue, body (touch), mind], monks, is to be regarded as old kamma, brought into existence and created by volition, forming a basis for feeling. This, monks, is called 'old kamma
.' -- S iv 132
And obviously this "old kamma" is the basis for Dependent on the eye and forms arise visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. Conditioned by contact is feeling. So, the arahant sees: Dependent on the eye and forms arise visual consciousness. The concurrence of the three is contact. No need to allude to some mysterious "unconditioned" arahant only process. It is the "old kamma" process of the "all" which is no longer clung to, no longer identified with, it is asankhata, no longer conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Aggregate?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:40 am

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:You do not have to decribe the arahant's experience. The Buddha already has, as in the text I quoted
He is talking about loka, not lokuttara.

Lokuttara is of the arahant. The rest of your argument falls with that...

If you don't see or accept that all the nidanas are dependent on avijja, then you don't. I don't know what I can do about that.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Aggregate?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:53 am

retrofuturist wrote: If you don't see or accept that all the nidanas are dependent on avijja, then you don't. I don't know what I can do about that.
As Tilt said, they are dependent on past ignorance, so no problem there.

:anjali:
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:55 am

Greetings Mike,

Unless you are Tilt, I don't see what your acceptance has to do with whether or not Tilt accepts that all the nidanas are dependent on avijja.

It is curious how people wish to speak for the lokas of others.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Aggregate?

Post by Sylvester » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:56 am

DarwidHalim wrote:This sutta:
"The world in general, Kaccaayana, inclines to two views, to existence or to non-existence. But for him who, with the highest wisdom, sees the uprising of the world as it really is, 'non-existence of the world' does not apply, and for him who, with highest wisdom, sees the passing away of the world as it really is, 'existence of the world' does not apply.
Now, is the existence of aggregrate solely a believe business?
Is the non-existence of aggregrate also solely a believe business?

Is the higher wisdom is the wisdom that make you not to believe?

But, the key question here based on what reason I shouldn't believe?

If this aggregate does exist, of course we have to believe it is exist.

Because Buddha said clearly: SEE REALITY AS WHAT IT IS.
...But for him who, with the highest wisdom, sees the uprising of the world as it really is...
So, after seeing reality as what it is, if we can see the aggregate, why I shouldn't believe it?

If I see there are feelings, and that is the reality that I see, why I shouldn't believe it?

It is then a big contradiction here: between see reality as what it is and whether you should believe it or not.

But, if you believe aggregate exist, you are extrimist.
"'Everything exists,'[9] this is one extreme [view];
But, if you believe aggregate do not exist, you are also extrimist.
'nothing exists,' this is the other extreme.
So, how if we just see everything as such, without conceptual?

Isn't feeling just an alient concept?
Isn't perception just an alient concept?

Shouldn't we remove this extra layer of conceptual, throw that layer to the garbage, and just be there nakedly?
And what if, just what if, your entire conception of what SN 12.15 means were based on a bad and perverted translation?

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Re: Aggregate?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:59 am

retrofuturist wrote: Unless you are Tilt, I don't see what your acceptance has to do with whether or not Tilt accepts that all the nidanas are dependent on avijja.
OK, take it as speaking for myself then. Past ignorance.
retrofuturist wrote: It is curious how people wish to speak for the lokas of others.
I'm not, I'm discussing the Buddha-Vacana. Can we stick to that?

:anjali:
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:00 am

Greetings Mike,

That would be good... even better would be discussion on the topic - i.e. aggregates and aggregation.

:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Aggregate?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:03 am

retrofuturist wrote: That would be good... even better would be discussion on the topic - i.e. aggregates and aggregation.
Sure. They are a classification scheme that aids in seeing experience more clearly and becoming disenchanted with conditioned existence.

:anjali:
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:09 am

As Ven Nyanatiloka writes:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... tm#khandha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities 'heaps', 'bundles', while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body-and-mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental constructions are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities.
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:10 am

Greetings Mike,
Mike wrote:They are a classification scheme that aids in seeing experience more clearly and becoming disenchanted with conditioned existence
Yes.

Extract from MN 149: Mahasalayatanika Sutta
http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn149.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"For him -- infatuated, attached, confused, not remaining focused on their drawbacks -- the five aggregates for sustenance head toward future accumulation. The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- grows within him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances grow. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Aggregate?

Post by Sylvester » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:21 am

retrofuturist wrote: In other topics I've called out this variable use of word "conditioned". In the context of the Dhamma, or paticcasamuppada, it ultimately traces back to being "conditioned by avijja" and it is therefore "sankhara". To then interchangeably use the word "conditioned" to refer to anything that may have a cause (either "out there" or "in loka" - such as, "the mountain is conditioned by the rain and wind", "the human body is conditioned by the ovum and the sperm", "the body is conditioned by food and oxygen") is to shift the frames of reference and create inconsistencies in meaning.
And why is an Arahant's post-Awakening experiences not "conditioned by" saṅkhāra in accordance with the 2nd nidāna?

It's this insistence on taking up Nanavira's insistence that DO is a single life process that dilutes the possibilities opened up by those suttas discussing the establishment (patiṭṭhā) of consciousness. The phassas that an Arahant contacts (phusati) arise in dependance on old kamma. There is nothing that an Arahant experiences that is unconditioned, except perhaps for the experience of the Attainment of Cessation.

All we can be certain is that Arahants stop creating conditions - SN 12.51. But it is not logical to surmise that therefore Arahants experience unconditioned states.

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Re: Aggregate?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:28 am

Greetings Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:And why is an Arahant's post-Awakening experiences not "conditioned by" saṅkhāra in accordance with the 2nd nidāna?
Moreover, why would it be if sankhara are volitional formations?

Would arahants who have eradicated avijja take perverse pleasure in volitionally forming dukkha (i.e. sabbe sankhara dukkha)?

Curious.

"Mind precedes all dhammas. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought." (Dhp1)

What to make then of the mind of the hypothetical arahant who forms post-Awakening sankharas?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Aggregate?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sylvester wrote:And why is an Arahant's post-Awakening experiences not "conditioned by" saṅkhāra in accordance with the 2nd nidāna?
Moreover, why would it be if sankhara are volitional formations?

Would arahants who have eradicated avijja take perverse pleasure in volitionally forming dukkha (i.e. sabbe sankhara dukkha)?
Because the condition is from the past, as Sylvester explained.

:anjali:
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by Sylvester » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mike,
Mike wrote:They are a classification scheme that aids in seeing experience more clearly and becoming disenchanted with conditioned existence
Yes.

Extract from MN 149: Mahasalayatanika Sutta
http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn149.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"For him -- infatuated, attached, confused, not remaining focused on their drawbacks -- the five aggregates for sustenance head toward future accumulation. The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now this & now that -- grows within him. His bodily disturbances & mental disturbances grow. His bodily torments & mental torments grow. His bodily distresses & mental distresses grow. He is sensitive both to bodily stress & mental stress.
Metta,
Retro. :)
Could you pls explain the relevance of MN 149 to this issue?

Before you answer, I suggest you treat this particular translation with some circumspection. Perhaps there is a variant reading that supports the translation, but the 3 texts I've consulted do not say -
not remaining focused on their drawbacks
but instead say -
assādānupassino viharato
abides... contemplating gratification

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Re: Aggregate?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:38 am

Greetings Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:Could you pls explain the relevance of MN 149 to this issue?
The relevance is that not understanding the true nature of aggregates leads to bad, bad, things.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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