Aggregate?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
vinasp
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by vinasp » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:56 pm

Hi everyone,

" ... And what is it that he extinguishes and does not kindle? He extinguishes
form and does not kindle it. He extinguishes feeling ... perception ...
volitional-formations ... consciousness and does not kindle it. ..."

[Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, page 917, part of SN 22.79]

Regards, Vincent.

Nyana
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by Nyana » Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:01 am

A middle way approach:

(a) The aggregates are designations that designate aggregations of dhammas.

(b) Dhammas are designations designated on the basis of mere appearances as they appear to unimpaired minds.

(c) All teachings and path structures are provisional expedients, oriented towards lessening and eventually eliminating defilements and fetters.

This paññattimatta interpretation has the advantage of not requiring ontological commitments while still accepting the appearances of functional things and the utility of conventional path language and terms.

Sylvester
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by Sylvester » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:52 am

daverupa wrote: So, what was the problem again? Because I'm not seeing a problem with a conclusion such as this... I think the problem may be in the explanation, not in the understanding...
The problem seems to be retro's understanding of the verb "appropriate" ( upādiyati ).

In the suttas, that verb denotes only the "appropriating" or "taking up" of the Aggregates as self/Self.

Retro would like to introduce an ontological dimension to the discussion, ie that "believing" that the Aggregates are real is the target of the suttas. He should address that to the Sarvas, as that is not an issue addressed in the suttas.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:56 am

Ñāṇa wrote:A middle way approach:

(a) The aggregates are designations that designate aggregations of dhammas.

(b) Dhammas are designations designated on the basis of mere appearances as they appear to unimpaired minds.

(c) All teachings and path structures are provisional expedients, oriented towards lessening and eventually eliminating defilements and fetters.

This paññattimatta interpretation has the advantage of not requiring ontological commitments while still accepting the appearances of functional things and the utility of conventional path language and terms.
While I definitely agree with all of that, what would be interesting is tying all that to the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Nyana
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by Nyana » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:01 am

tiltbillings wrote:While I definitely agree with all of that, what would be interesting is tying all that to ther suttas.
Ven. Ñāṇananda has done some of the leg work on this. So did Candrakīrti 1400 years ago.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:04 am

vinasp wrote:Hi everyone,

" ... And what is it that he extinguishes and does not kindle? He extinguishes
form and does not kindle it. He extinguishes feeling ... perception ...
volitional-formations ... consciousness and does not kindle it. ..."

[Bhikkhu Bodhi, Connected Discourses, page 917, part of SN 22.79]

Regards, Vincent.
But what does the mean? Does it mean that the arahant does not feel, have perceptions, etc?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by DarwidHalim » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:29 am

Ñāṇa wrote: Ven. Ñāṇananda has done some of the leg work on this.
Do you know where can I find his research work?

It will be interesting to see how He can draw the same conclusion with Chandrakirti.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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tiltbillings
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:36 am

Sorry, i did not see this earlier.
Ron-The-Elder wrote:Tilt. Help me out with this thread as it seems way too complicated for my simple mind.Please read, and tell me where my following summary of it goes wrong:

Any attachment /clinging to that which is impermanent will lead to suffering. Form is impermanent. Consciousness is impermanent. Views and perspectives are impermanent. Feelings and emotions are impermanent. All mental factors are impermanent. Any and all processes leading to becoming are impermanent. Mind itself is impermanent. Any conclusions which lead one to believe in any form or configuration of a permanent self is both delusional and impermanent and therefore will lead to suffering. This entire samsaric existence is but a mass of suffering as a result and subject to Mara's guiles / influences. Arahants and other Well Gone ones
cannot be seen by him, Mara, The Prince of Death and therefore are untrackable by him or anyone else for that matter.

What did I miss? :thinking:

Thanks for efforts and your consideration in advance.:anjali: Ron
Generally, your synopsis is on target.

As an aside, however, is the question of Mara. We do see, in the texts, Mara approaching the Buddha and other arahants, but Mara is never successful in tempting them. One can, I suppose, take Mara as being an actual being, or Mara is a figurative way of talking about the temptations arising from one's past conditionings, from the fact that, for arahants, while alive the khandhas still function, and one of the functions of the khandhas is a sense of self. Mara, however, is never successful in his temptations for the is no ground for a sense of self to stand on -- that is, no greed, hatred, and deluson.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:39 am

Ñāṇa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:While I definitely agree with all of that, what would be interesting is tying all that to ther suttas.
Ven. Ñāṇananda has done some of the leg work on this. So did Candrakīrti 1400 years ago.
I know; however, I am not really asking for myself, but I am asking for those who have not read Ven Nanananda and who will likely never read Candrakīrti.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:40 am

DarwidHalim wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote: Ven. Ñāṇananda has done some of the leg work on this.
Do you know where can I find his research work?

It will be interesting to see how He can draw the same conclusion with Chandrakirti.
He uses suttas and mindfulness practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by DarwidHalim » Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:59 am

tiltbillings wrote: He uses suttas and mindfulness practice.
Yes, I just want to see which Sutta is that.

Because the problem is this:

He perceive aggregate as aggregate. (like in MN1)

This main conflict is the first word of Aggregate.

Actually the first word aggregate should not be aggregate, it should be just appearance (or 'variable')

I do not know whether the translation is correct or not.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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tiltbillings
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:02 am

DarwidHalim wrote:
Because the problem is this:

He perceive aggregate as aggregate. (like in MN1)

This main conflict is the first word of Aggregate.

Actually the first word aggregate should not be aggregate, it should be just appearance (or 'variable')

I do not know whether the translation is correct or not.
That you will need to take up with retro.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by DarwidHalim » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:16 am

Yes.

As we know, How we see determine our next action.

We take out the wood statue of buddha from this temple and we use it as a fire wood.

One monk say: you are sinful, you burn the statue of Buddha.
Another monk say: you are stupid, I burn the wood.

So, is that appearance a statue or a wood?

They way we see the thing as fix, close your eyes from other perspective, while in reality appearances can be seen from unlimited angle.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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retrofuturist
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:42 am

Greetings,
Ñāṇa wrote:A middle way approach:

(a) The aggregates are designations that designate aggregations of dhammas.

(b) Dhammas are designations designated on the basis of mere appearances as they appear to unimpaired minds.

(c) All teachings and path structures are provisional expedients, oriented towards lessening and eventually eliminating defilements and fetters.

This paññattimatta interpretation has the advantage of not requiring ontological commitments while still accepting the appearances of functional things and the utility of conventional path language and terms.
:goodpost:

Well said, Geoff.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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retrofuturist
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Re: Aggregate?

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:43 am

Greetings Sylvester,
Sylvester wrote:Retro would like to introduce an ontological dimension to the discussion
:strawman:

Wrong again... tilting at windmills.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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