are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:28 pm

santa100 wrote:Jason C wrote:
"The nazi issue is in the past, it has no relevence in the present, which is where practicing buddhists should try to remain"

Guess what Jason C, without this past, you wouldn't be sitting here in your comfy armchair sipping hot chocolate and discussing about war and peace. If you're a Jew, chances are that you'd already be dead by now OR you'd be living a horrible horrible life facing constant abuse, cold, and hunger at Auschwitz. If the Nazis had their way, the term "Noble Aryan Disciples" would have a whole new different meaning. And you'd soon find out for yourself that they weren't very "noble" afterall. If terms like Auschwitz, National Socialism, or Gas Chambers don't ring a bell, you might want to check out these 2 movies before continuing your discussion: "Life Is Beautiful" and "The Pianist".
dear santa100,
if you can't let go of the past, if you can't practice forgiveness, how will you ever know peace. and if you do not know peace for yourself, how can you be an example of it to others.

metta,
jason

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:44 pm

SDC wrote:
jason c wrote:the monk simply stated he was not an expert in the medical field, the man seemed to be cared for, and he was simply minding his own business.
Maybe I have a lot to learn, but I would never want to be like this. Nor do I see this attitude anywhere in the teachings. I think the monk was afraid to act for whatever reason.
jason c wrote:are there any justifiable wars that a practicing buddhist could support?
No.

But that doesn't mean we have to turn a blind eye when one is happening or pretend it isn't going on. We can support those that have been affected. We can have an opinion on the outcome. We don't have to repress the fact that we care just because we are practicing.
hi SDC,
the message is not to simply act like a stone when chaos is happening around you. when chaos is happening around you, you would act or you would choose not to act! the practicing buddhist must train themself to be mindfull of their actions and not get caught up in body sensations(emotions) that cause us to react unskillfully.
nothing of what i am talking about is suppression. to allow sankharas to rise to the surface both pleasant and unpleasant and remain equanimous is not a practice of suppression.
metta,
jason

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:58 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
jason c wrote: we should simply be minding our own business.
What is our own business? Do we ignore the screams of terror outside our apartment window because that is not our business? Do we ignore the person in distress? What is our business?

violence just seems to lead to more violence
So, we allow the violence to contune because it is not our business? What is our business?
hey tilt,
1. our own sensory perseptions.
2.sounds are just sounds how you percieve them is your business.
3.you may choose to ignore the person in distress or you may choose to take action. mindful action is the practice.
4. see answer to #2
5.see answer to #3
6.see answer to #2

metta,
jason

santa100
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by santa100 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:05 pm

Jason C wrote:
"if you can't let go of the past, if you can't practice forgiveness, how will you ever know peace. and if you do not know peace for yourself, how can you be an example of it to others"

Dear Jason C, it'd be utterly impossible to ever know peace if you're just "mindful" and "simply watch" as a bystander to the suffering of other people. By the way, good luck with trying to be an "example" to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc..

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:39 pm

santa100 wrote:Jason C wrote:
"if you can't let go of the past, if you can't practice forgiveness, how will you ever know peace. and if you do not know peace for yourself, how can you be an example of it to others"

Dear Jason C, it'd be utterly impossible to ever know peace if you're just "mindful" and "simply watch" as a bystander to the suffering of other people. By the way, good luck with trying to be an "example" to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc..
dear santa100,
stop watching others, you will not find peace looking outwardly, you must look inwardly. "know thyself". you do not have to change the habit patterns of others, you only have to change yours.
metta,
jason

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Mr Man
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by Mr Man » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:51 pm

Jason,
This is a very beautiful sutta and possibly is relivent: Sedaka Sutta: The Bamboo Acrobat http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html
:anjali:

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by LonesomeYogurt » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:11 pm

The Buddha's path is the path to the end of suffering. Those on it should not take up arms or engage in violence with anyone, especially out of anger or hatred.
"When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, his mind is already seized, debased, & misdirected by the thought: 'May these beings be struck down or slaughtered or annihilated or destroyed. May they not exist': If others then strike him down & slay him while he is thus striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the hell called the realm of those slain in battle. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

— SN 42.3
Non-Buddhist statesmen and soldiers who engage in war must judge their moral decisions by other criteria and Buddhists should not criticize those who do not follow the Buddha by holding them to the Buddha's standards. However, I think it's clear that for a Buddhist, by the Buddha's standards, there is no just war. Other people may have different standards and they will deal with the negative karma they accumulate doing so.

We should, with compassion, help these people to see the error of their ways, as the Buddha did with King Pasenadi. But in the end, it's not up to us. The best we can do is follow the Buddha's words and live harmlessly no matter what others may choose to do.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by DNS » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:40 pm

jason c wrote: the nazi issue is in the past, it has no relevence in the present, which is where practicing buddhists should try to remain.
Oh, but it is in the present. There are still leaders like that in this world. Genocide is still continuing to this day in some parts of the world. So you have avoided this question.
jason c wrote: how many of the recovering jews after rescue held on to resentment for their remaining days passing that resentment on to the next generation, all the time never knowing the joy of forgiveness letting go, detatchment, peace.
What is a "recovering Jew"? Is that something like a recovering alcoholic? I think you meant surviving Jew (from the holocaust). How do you know this about the so-called resentment and not letting go, etc.? Have you met a few Jews and made a generalization? :thinking: I have met many survivors and most were quite normal and happy considering what they went through. Many became idealistic, starting kibbutzim (collective farms) in Israel.

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marc108
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by marc108 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:11 pm

I struggle with this question, and questions of a similar nature. I pile this one into the 'I'll deal with it if it happens' pile... speculation is rather pointless imo.

The Buddha, I believe, had a good understanding of the society he lived in and how war and whatnot functioned in his day. What he did not, I believe, have foreknowledge of is the type of War that exists today. The slaughter of millions of innocents that we see in Africa today, let alone Hitlers slaughter of ~15 million people, did not exist in the time of the Buddha. The capacity for maniacs to literally take over the entire world did not exist in the time of the Buddha. We can not claim to know what the Buddha would say in light of things as they are today... The Buddha was a pragmatist, and the farthest thing from dogmatic... Had he seen the carnage of WWII, tens of millions of dead, half the world destroyed... perhaps he would have changed his position? I think our best bet is to listen to what the great Masters of the modern day say, and hope that we are never put in those positions.

http://dalailama.com/messages/world-pea ... ity-of-war" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"For instance, it is plain to all of us that the Second World War was entirely justified. It "saved civilization" from the tyranny of Nazi Germany, as Winston Churchill so aptly put it."
Last edited by marc108 on Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:11 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
jason c wrote: the nazi issue is in the past, it has no relevence in the present, which is where practicing buddhists should try to remain.
Oh, but it is in the present. There are still leaders like that in this world. Genocide is still continuing to this day in some parts of the world. So you have avoided this question.
jason c wrote: how many of the recovering jews after rescue held on to resentment for their remaining days passing that resentment on to the next generation, all the time never knowing the joy of forgiveness letting go, detatchment, peace.
What is a "recovering Jew"? Is that something like a recovering alcoholic? I think you meant surviving Jew (from the holocaust). How do you know this about the so-called resentment and not letting go, etc.? Have you met a few Jews and made a generalization? :thinking: I have met many survivors and most were quite normal and happy considering what they went through. Many became idealistic, starting kibbutzim (collective farms) in Israel.
hi david,

do you live constantly worrying about the state of the planet? or do you live moment to moment observing the sense doors? at times i witness the insanity of others(watch the news), but i prefer to see the beauty in the world, and i do my part trying to end the insanity by being mindful of my actions and practicing the noble 8-fold path.

a recovering jew is a survivor of the holocaust.
no.
yes.
first hand experience.
yes
i'm sure they were. great good for them.

metta,
jason

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:18 pm

marc108 wrote:I struggle with this question, and questions of a similar nature. I pile this one into the 'I'll deal with it if it happens' pile... speculation is rather pointless imo.

The Buddha, I believe, had a good understanding of the society he lived in and how war and whatnot functioned in his day. What he did not, I believe, have foreknowledge of is the type of War that exists today. The slaughter of millions of innocents that we see in Africa today, let alone Hitlers slaughter of ~15 million people, did not exist in the time of the Buddha. The capacity for maniacs to literally take over the entire world did not exist in the time of the Buddha. We can not claim to know what the Buddha would say in light of things as they are today... The Buddha was a pragmatist, and the farthest thing from dogmatic... Had he seen the carnage of WWII, tens of millions of dead, half the world destroyed... perhaps he would have changed his position? I think our best bet is to listen to what the great Masters of the modern day say, and hope that we are never put in those positions.

http://dalailama.com/messages/world-pea ... ity-of-war" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"For instance, it is plain to all of us that the Second World War was entirely justified. It "saved civilization" from the tyranny of Nazi Germany, as Winston Churchill so aptly put it."
what about the native americans and australian aboriginies, do they matter less than the jewish people in ww2? war is war, war is terrorism, to start a war against terrorism is to start a war against war.
pointless!
metta,
jason

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:20 pm

Mr Man wrote:Jason,
This is a very beautiful sutta and possibly is relivent: Sedaka Sutta: The Bamboo Acrobat http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html
:anjali:
yes, this is very relevant.
metta,
jason

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marc108
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by marc108 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:22 pm

jason c wrote: what about the native americans and australian aboriginies, do they matter less than the jewish people in ww2? war is war, war is terrorism, to start a war against terrorism is to start a war against war.
pointless!
metta,
jason
those were not wars in the context that is being used here, but of course the Natives are no less valuable than any other person. WWII was not a war against terrorism, per say, it was a desperate attempt to stop a maniac from literally taking over the whole world. would it have been better to let hitler do his thing and hope for peace? of course not.

i can see, how a Buddhist would not want to participate in war or to kill... totally justifiable. but to make sweeping judgements that war itself is wrong, without paying attention to situation and context, is unwise.
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."

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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by DNS » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:28 pm

jason c wrote: do you live constantly worrying about the state of the planet?
Of course not, but I also don't sit still watching my sensations if some chaos is going on around me. I also plan on contemplating what to do in certain situations; I am not going to sit and watch sensations to figure out what to do in the heat of some crisis or trust instincts when chaos occurs.
jason c wrote: a recovering jew is a survivor of the holocaust.
No it is not. "Recovering" is a term for "getting over" something such as alcohol, drugs, etc.
jason c wrote: first hand experience. [regarding knowing that Jews are full of resentment]
yes [regarding making a generalization upon meeting a few Jews]
Incredible. Unbelievable.

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:28 pm

manas wrote:
jason c wrote:
hi manas,
it's not your country,
what about the animals share of the lands wealth?
it's not your land!
metta,
jason
Hi jason,

'my Land' was meant in the sense of affection, not ownership. You have misunderstood my intent. If I had it my way, many mining projects would have to be shut down, because of the damage they cause to the ecosystems around them. When I spoke about the lack of proper remuneration for what the overseas miners take, it was solely to make the point that we are being plundered, and thus have, in one sense, already been 'invaded'...but in the ultimate sense, of course this Land doesn't 'belong' to anyone, and it isn't anyone's right to strip-mine it, destroy the water-table with Coal Seam Gas mining, etc etc...but, the miners, both ours and the overseas ones, don't appear to see it that way. Bear in mind that we too are implicated, however, by having purchased computers with metallic and other parts in them, that originally were extracted via...mining. It's a complex world.

Hope that clears things up

manas. _/I\_
hi manas,
i look at this in the same way as food. appreciate the effort that went in to growing the food you need for survival, appreciate the mining effort that went in to providing the heat for your home. be thankful to live in a day and age that affords you the opportunity to practice the teachings of the buddha, use things sparingly and care for them. you can not control what others do, just change the way you do things.
metta,
jason

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