are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
rowyourboat
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by rowyourboat » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:27 am

Hi All

Our business:

"And how does one dwell in heedfulness? When a monk dwells with restraint over the faculty of the eye, the mind is not stained with forms cognizable via the eye. When the mind is not stained, there is joy. There being joy, there is rapture. There being rapture, there is serenity. There being serenity, he dwells in ease. The mind of one at ease becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena (dhammas) become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, one is classed simply as one who dwells in heedfulness.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

..based on the principle:

Don't sacrifice your own welfare
for that of another,
no matter how great.
Realizing your own true welfare,
be intent on just that.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Can we do anything more beneficial to others than becoming enlightened ourselves?
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:28 am

mikenz66 wrote:I think that the OP argument is an unjustified conflation.

That the monk could tell that others were dealing with the situation, and didn't need to prove that he "cared" by fussing about it, it a good lesson. If circumstances were different and he could have done something more useful than what was already being done, then I suspect he would have acted.

Besides, remaining calm may be the most useful thing to do in times of stress, when others are loosing it. Ajahn Brahm sometimes talks about when a woman came into the Wat (I think this was in Thailand, I don't recall the details) distraught because her husband had died (maybe shot or something). The Abbot calmly finished his meal, and the woman calmed down considerably while waiting for him to talk to her. Making her wait was, in that circumstance, a very effective action.

:anjali:
Mike
i think he would have and i think that is the lesson.
ajahn brahm saw that the offence had already taken place it was in the past, nothing could change the past he simply remained present and let the fire burn out.
metta,
jason

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:36 am

santa100 wrote:Imagine the US didn't make the decision to take action during WW II, we probably would've been discussing the Dhamma in German. Actually, it's more like for those who practice "corrupted" doctrines not in line with National Socialism, they would be free to practice their faith...at Auschwitz; and worst of, our youths would probably be learning in their history class that once upon a time, there used to be an "evil" group of people called the Jews, but how wonderful it is now that they no longer exist!
hi santa100,
some do practice the dhamma in german, what's wrong with that?
the united nations acts the same way exterminating people who oppose their views, you only care about the side of the fence you are on. plus the united nations exterminates animals on a daily basis for food consumption, we humans share this planet, we do not own it, its not all about us.
metta,
jason

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:40 am

Mr Man wrote:
jason c wrote: while contemplating past and current wars i asked myself, are there any justifiable wars that a practicing buddhist could support? violence just seems to lead to more violence, a visious circle. or have we just become so culturally attached to war that it has become a family or countries tradition(my father fought in the war and his father fought in the war.....). maybe it's simply that we respect our elders ,friends,fathers,wives, so much that we are afraid to oppose their sacrifices. it seems to me that practicing buddhists should not be supporting or taking part in any military or police activities, we should simply be minding our own business.
To come to these questions from the position of being a "Buddhist" is, in my opinion, already divisive and in fact is actually creating an unnecessary conflict, although we can certainly look to the wise for guidance.

Are we culturally attached to war? I would say that humanity is attached to war and that unfortunately war is likely to continue. War is an extension of our lust for power and control + ignorance.

Should practicing buddhists be taking part in war? Most probably not but they are. For some there is no choice.

Should we as humans feel a sense of responsibility to society? Definitely yes

Jason, should "minding our own business" be just allowing war to continue or should we be actively working against war (war on war)?
hi mr man,
could you define society, who or what is contained in your definition of society?
what does actively working against war mean?
metta,
jason

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Mr Man
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by Mr Man » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:07 am

Hi Jason
A fairly standard dictionary definition of society is what I mean (the community within which we live).
Actively working against war could mean many different things. Can you think of some examples?

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:09 am

hey esquire,
if your life has ever been at risk you will know that there is no time to think, you simply act. the action you take will depend on the situation.
because of ignorance, i was born, because i was born i have senses, these senses are how i percieve this reality, because of ignorance i am attatched to this reality, so if i see a being suffering i take action but while acting i'm observing sensations.
metta,
jason

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:13 am

Mr Man wrote:Hi Jason
A fairly standard dictionary definition of society is what I mean (the community within which we live).
Actively working against war could mean many different things. Can you think of some examples?
how about letting the fire of war simply burn out, so there is no more fuel to reignite.
metta,
jason

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manas
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by manas » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:41 am

jason c wrote:
hi manas,
it's not your country,
what about the animals share of the lands wealth?
it's not your land!
metta,
jason
Hi jason,

'my Land' was meant in the sense of affection, not ownership. You have misunderstood my intent. If I had it my way, many mining projects would have to be shut down, because of the damage they cause to the ecosystems around them. When I spoke about the lack of proper remuneration for what the overseas miners take, it was solely to make the point that we are being plundered, and thus have, in one sense, already been 'invaded'...but in the ultimate sense, of course this Land doesn't 'belong' to anyone, and it isn't anyone's right to strip-mine it, destroy the water-table with Coal Seam Gas mining, etc etc...but, the miners, both ours and the overseas ones, don't appear to see it that way. Bear in mind that we too are implicated, however, by having purchased computers with metallic and other parts in them, that originally were extracted via...mining. It's a complex world.

Hope that clears things up

manas. _/I\_
Last edited by manas on Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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tiltbillings
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:42 am

jason c wrote:hey esquire,
if your life has ever been at risk you will know that there is no time to think, you simply act. the action you take will depend on the situation.
My life has been at risk, and it surprising how much thinking can happen in a snap of finger.

Questions still pending:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 61#p192845" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by DNS » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:42 pm

jason c wrote: hey david,
do you think the united states is a peaceful nation?
Hi jason,

Peaceful and war-mongering are very broad terms. There can be some gray areas in the middle. I would prefer all nations to be peaceful and non-violent, but as we know, this is not the case. The U.S. has engaged in many wars, many of which were not even in defense of the nation, but rather international police actions based on flimsy evidence or questionable reasons. As societies progress, wars become much less frequent, but also much larger in scale. The horticultural - tribal societies are some of the most war-mongering, war-like societies ever seen on earth, but the scale of violence with the lesser technology was less.
jason c wrote:
santa100 wrote:Imagine the US didn't make the decision to take action during WW II, we probably would've been discussing the Dhamma in German. Actually, it's more like for those who practice "corrupted" doctrines not in line with National Socialism, they would be free to practice their faith...at Auschwitz; and worst of, our youths would probably be learning in their history class that once upon a time, there used to be an "evil" group of people called the Jews, but how wonderful it is now that they no longer exist!
hi santa100,
some do practice the dhamma in german, what's wrong with that?
the united nations acts the same way exterminating people who oppose their views, you only care about the side of the fence you are on. plus the united nations exterminates animals on a daily basis for food consumption, we humans share this planet, we do not own it, its not all about us.
I think you are missing santa's point. It is not about practicing Dhamma in German, but that we wouldn't even have access to the Dhamma if the Nazis continued on their path of taking over the world and continuing the ethnic genocides. You said santa only cares about the "side of the fence" he is on. In regard to WW II era Nazis and their "master plans" which side would you be on? If it is not your business and you would be on no side and if everyone felt that way, the Nazis would have their way and the Dhamma would already be lost at their book burnings and prohibitions against anything non-aryan (nazi version of the term).
jason c wrote:
we should simply be minding our own business.
As Tilt asked, what does this mean? So we should not speak out against an injustice? Should MLK have minded his own business? Should Rosa Parks just sit at the back with the other Black people like the racist segregation policies told her to do?

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:44 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
jason c wrote:hey esquire,
if your life has ever been at risk you will know that there is no time to think, you simply act. the action you take will depend on the situation.
My life has been at risk, and it surprising how much thinking can happen in a snap of finger.

Questions still pending:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 61#p192845" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
then while you were thinking, were you mindful of the sensations created and your reactions to them?
metta,
jason

jason c
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by jason c » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:04 pm

hi david,
i'm sure the native american indians, or the australian aboriginies, feel exactly the same as the jews did. where was the civil interaction then. group mentalities are not for practicing buddhists we are to remain mindful of our own sensations and reactions to them. i watched my cousin catch and in my interpretation torture a fish the other day for the apparent reason of educating my son on how to handle fish. i did nothing but observe the sensations in my body i didn't react to stop him. i did not agree with what he was doing, and on a day to day basis i teach my son my way of living in the world. he will be free to make up his own mind. the nazi issue is in the past, it has no relevence in the present, which is where practicing buddhists should try to remain. how many of the recovering jews after rescue held on to resentment for their remaining days passing that resentment on to the next generation, all the time never knowing the joy of forgiveness letting go, detatchment, peace.
metta,
jason

santa100
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by santa100 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:57 pm

Jason C wrote:
"The nazi issue is in the past, it has no relevence in the present, which is where practicing buddhists should try to remain"

Guess what Jason C, without this past, you wouldn't be sitting here in your comfy armchair sipping hot chocolate and discussing about war and peace. If you're a Jew, chances are that you'd already be dead by now OR you'd be living a horrible horrible life facing constant abuse, cold, and hunger at Auschwitz. If the Nazis had their way, the term "Noble Aryan Disciples" would have a whole new different meaning. And you'd soon find out for yourself that they weren't very "noble" afterall. If terms like Auschwitz, National Socialism, or Gas Chambers don't ring a bell, you might want to check out these 2 movies before continuing your discussion: "Life Is Beautiful" and "The Pianist".

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tiltbillings
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:53 pm

jason c wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
jason c wrote:hey esquire,
if your life has ever been at risk you will know that there is no time to think, you simply act. the action you take will depend on the situation.
My life has been at risk, and it surprising how much thinking can happen in a snap of finger.

Questions still pending:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 61#p192845" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
then while you were thinking, were you mindful of the sensations created and your reactions to them?
metta,
jason
I am waiting for you to directly answer these questions in the above link. There is no point in my answering your questions if you don't directly answer my questions put to you first. You do seem to be dodging questions here left and right.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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SDC
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Re: are there any justifiable wars to a practicing buddhist?

Post by SDC » Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:49 pm

jason c wrote:the monk simply stated he was not an expert in the medical field, the man seemed to be cared for, and he was simply minding his own business.
Maybe I have a lot to learn, but I would never want to be like this. Nor do I see this attitude anywhere in the teachings. I think the monk was afraid to act for whatever reason.
jason c wrote:are there any justifiable wars that a practicing buddhist could support?
No.

But that doesn't mean we have to turn a blind eye when one is happening or pretend it isn't going on. We can support those that have been affected. We can have an opinion on the outcome. We don't have to repress the fact that we care just because we are practicing.

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