Meditation Influence Diagram

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Travis
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:22 pm

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by Travis » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:06 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Keep in mind that Kornfeild does not list Munidraji as a teacher. His primary practice and training.was as a monk under Ajahn Chah.
Sorry Tilt, I fixed it in my previous post.

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by Ben » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:51 pm

Travis wrote:Here are some of the additions/revisions I plan on making, anyone who has any info, suggestions, corrections, etc. let me know. I will probably start a new diagram soon. *teachers included in Kornfield's "Living Dharma"

Ajahn Chah>Ajan Sumedho>Ajahn Sucitto
Ajahn Brahm & Ajahn Maha Chatchai>Sujato
Ajahn Mun>Mae Chee Kaew
Ajahn Chah & Ajahn Sumedho>Ajahn Vajiro
Mahasi sayadaw & Munindraji (Anagarika Shri Munindra)>Dipa Ma>silva Boorstein, joseph goldstein, Michelle Levy, Sharon Salzberg
S.N. Goenka>Munindraji>Sharon Salzberg & Surya Das & Joseph Goldstein
S.N Goenka & Dipa Ma & Sayadaw U Pandita> Joseph Goldstein
Jack Kornfield>Gil Fronsdal
Narada Thera> Ayya Khema
Mahasi Sayadaw>Jayana>Nanarama
Ajahn Pathunta U Vilasa>Ajahn Naeb*
Ajahn Dhammadharo>Ajahn Jumien*
Ledi>U Ba San>Sunlun*>Sayadw "U Sobhana" (not Mahasi Sayadaw)
Yay Lai Sayadw>Sunlun*
Ledi>Mogok? & sayagyi U Kyi
U Narada>Taungpulu Sayadaw
Bhaddanta Sobhita & Mahasi Sayadaw >Shwe Oo Min Sayadaw>U Tejaniya
Ajahn Dhammadaro>Ajahn Ghosananda>Jack Kornfield
Ajahn Chah & Mahasi sayadaw & Ajahn Buddhadasa & Dipa Ma>Jack Kornfield
Jack Kornfield (remove) U Pandita & Munindraji connections

Does anyone know if Mogok trained under Ledi Sayadaw? He is said to have "followed in the footsteps" of Ledi, and I have seen comments about a certain similarity in the approach of the two, but can't find a clear "teacher" or "tradition" for Mogok.

Also I'm having trouble figuring out anything about if Yay Lai Sayadaw (taught Sunlun) is connected anywhere else. He is said to be "of Meik-hti-lar" and may be connected to "Nyaung-Lunt monastery"?

:anjali:
Hi Travis
Does anyone know if Mogok trained under Ledi Sayadaw? He is said to have "followed in the footsteps" of Ledi, and I have seen comments about a certain similarity in the approach of the two, but can't find a clear "teacher" or "tradition" for Mogok.
When I was in Myanmar I was doing a 30-day vipassana retreat at VMC Dhamma Mandala outside of Mandalay. Next door to us was a monastery where a 28-day vipassana course was being held for the monks. The instructions and pali chants from the monastery were being broadcast via loud-speaker. At the end of my 30-day course, my Burmese co-students told me that monks retreat was vipassana meditation in the Mogok Sayadaw's style. They told me that it was almost identical to what we were doing in the SN Goenka/U Ba Khin "tradition". I have seen reference, somewhere, to the Ledi Sayadaw/Mogok Sayadaw link but don't remember where.

In the book that I mentioned earlier, "Burma's Mass Lay Meditation Movement", it describes Mahasi Sayadaw as Monyin Sayadaw's "protege". \What has become clear to me is that the relationships between teacher and student isn't always clear nor well documented. When I was in Myanmar I actually wanted to do some research on the history of meditation in Myanmar but I didn't realize I needed permission from the Dept of Religious Affairs!
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6616
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:57 am

Travis wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:I said ordained, that is different from being a disciple, or training under someone.
I guess we may be talking past each other here a bit. Just to be clear, the connections I would like to illustrate are more "trained/mentored in meditation under" and lacking this detail I rely on "Ordained Under" or "Disciple of"
I was illustrating ordained and disciple are not the same.
Cittasanto wrote:Yes, Although I Believe he is a disciple of Ajahn Chah.

Yes, that seems to be true. Regarding his connection to Sumedho: "Since 1984, Ajahn Vajiro has been assisting at the Amaravati Buddhist Monastery in England that is under the leadership of Ajahn Sumedho." There is no evidence of any training/mentorship, but the proximity would be of interest to those who are interested in Sumedho, so it would be included, but by a line without an arrow (denoting the direction of the transmission of ideas/teaching/mentorship).
[/quote]
Proximity doesn't really say much, take the two new Bhikkhunis in california (sorry can not recall their names), they both could be included in that list yet at best Ajahn Sumedho is only given a passing reference on their site, from memory. and their are disciples of of other Ajahns at amaravati who spent a number of years at Amaravati or with Ajahn Sumedho.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

User avatar
Travis
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:22 pm

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by Travis » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:30 pm

Hello everyone. Version 2 is complete. Let me know what you think.
Attachments
Meditation-Lineage-v2.pdf
(19.62 KiB) Downloaded 138 times

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:30 pm

Travis wrote:Hello everyone. Version 2 is complete. Let me know what you think.
Looks good. Thanks for the effort.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
Modus.Ponens
Posts: 2730
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:38 am
Location: Gallifrey

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by Modus.Ponens » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:45 pm

:thumbsup:

Thanks!
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by Ben » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:16 pm

Well done, Travis!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

User avatar
LonesomeYogurt
Posts: 900
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:24 pm
Location: America

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by LonesomeYogurt » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:50 pm

Why is Gunaratana not connected to anyone? Does he really have no known teacher or is there just a dearth of information?

Great job though!
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19883
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:52 am

Greetings Travis, all,

What about...

Sutta Pitaka > Ven. Gnanananda

See: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 67#p190713" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:29 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Travis, all,

What about...

Sutta Pitaka > Ven. Gnanananda

See: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 67#p190713" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
Buddha/Sutta Pitaka > Everyone on the list.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19883
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:35 am

Greetings Tilt,

Yes, but the link I suggested needs to be explicitly referenced unless the likes of teachers such as Vens. Gnanananda, Punnaji etc. be discriminated against in the realisation of Travis' objective...
Travis wrote:An illustration of the dissemination of ideas among prominent figures in the Theravada tradition, with special emphasis on the study of meditation.
Their omission would be discrimination because their omission would infer that "dissemination of ideas" "on the study of meditation" is only valid if it comes from a flesh-and-bone mentor/guide/teacher under a formal model of "lineage".

Anyway, I've provided a link to the reasoning behind my statement. What Travis does with it, and if/how he chooses to represent it, is up to him.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:47 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Yes, but the link I suggested needs to be explicitly referenced unless the likes of teachers such as Vens. Gnanananda, Punnaji etc. be discriminated against in the realisation of Travis' objective...
Travis wrote:An illustration of the dissemination of ideas among prominent figures in the Theravada tradition, with special emphasis on the study of meditation.
Metta,
Retro. :)
See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From memory of the newsletters I used to get from his Washington DC center back in the late 60's and 70's, his study and teachings of meditation was drawing not just from the suttas alone. There are enough echos of the Burmese traditions in his Mindfulness in Plain English book and he told me via a brief correspondence that I had with him in the early 70's that Ven Nyanaponika's THE HEART OF BUDDHIST MEDITATION was excellent, which suggest hints of what influenced him.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19883
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:49 am

Greetings Tilt,

I don't understand what you're getting at with the link.

Are you suggesting that there's an opportunity to add Visuddhimagga/Buddhaghosa or other texts to the list?

Or are you confusing Gnanananda with Gunaratna?

Kiribathgoda Gnanananda Thero
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiribathgo ... anda_Thero" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
Travis
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:22 pm

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by Travis » Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:59 am

Thanks all!
Hey Retro, great suggestion. Do you have any better background info other than the same blurb that is repeated all over the internet about him?
retrofuturist wrote:Their omission would be discrimination because their omission would infer that "dissemination of ideas" "on the study of meditation" is only valid if it comes from a flesh-and-bone mentor/guide/teacher under a formal model of "lineage".
See below.
LonesomeYogurt wrote:Why is Gunaratana not connected to anyone?

If there are others that people would like me to add just give me some help/info, I am not purposefully trying to exclude anyone.
:anjali:

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Meditation/Lineage Diagram

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:01 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Or are you confusing Gnanananda with Gunaratna?
Of course I am.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: budo and 44 guests