Other conditions today???

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Cittasanto
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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by Cittasanto » Sun May 27, 2012 9:00 pm

befriend wrote:im not sure what the mode of dress for women in india/nepal was but living in the US and watching television for 10 minutes and you are bombarded with breasts. and what is the cause of lust to arise? focusing on beauty. granted its my own will to look at the breasts but it make it a lot easier for me to practice renunciation if women covered up more. not that im at a point in my life where i want women to cover up, im not that spiritual. ha. im just making a statement that practicing now may be harder than practicing then what with all the lustful ads.
You know there are examples of it being even worse then!
bear(sp?) chested women are found in the canon. and if you are in a situation where there is a lack of sensual stimuli small details (ancles or the smallest amount of curve, or body exposure) can become overwhelming, and just as exciting.
Last edited by Cittasanto on Sun May 27, 2012 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by Cittasanto » Sun May 27, 2012 9:07 pm

jason c wrote:dear cittasanto,
once someone has found the path the buddha has described, and developed the technique of practice the buddha has described. they become their own teacher their own master, and can progress on the path at a pace that suits them. i see the world we live in today, with the financial difficulties, the mistreatment of animals,and the amount of drugs humans are taking just to deal with the pain. i also see the confusion and fighting that is caused by organised religions (buddhism included), and i think why is it so difficult for people to find the truth? and then i look at myself and i see the confusion, the hurdles, the difficulties, the chances, and the pain i endured to find this path. it is not as visible as one may think. if it was there would be one teaching, one practice, not all these different sects. the teachings of the buddha are as relevant today as they were 2500yrs ago. so why aren't there more people practicing why is the world in such a chaotic state. buddhism doesnt have to evolve, people still find it, but isn't it a crime for it not to evolve, not to reach its arms out and all those who are suffering. what is the harm in updating old stories to reach a new generation? its selfish of us not to!
metta,
jason
There is updating, and then changing.
if something can be adapted to work in different situations, great, but if it works perfectly well & isn't broken don't fix it.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Alex123
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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by Alex123 » Sun May 27, 2012 9:46 pm

Greetings Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:There is still eye and forms. There is still ear and sounds. There is still body and touch. There is still tongue and taste. There is still nose and smell. There is still mind and thought.
There was alive Buddha Gotama who could point out the mistakes of people. Today we do not have the Buddha who can say "this interpretation is correct. This interpretation is not correct. You need this method, another person needs another method." There is no guarantee that a certain method is right one, especially for someone personally. In VsM there are about 40 objects of meditation. Which one do fits someone the best? How can one know? To try all out might take more than one life, especially if one doesn't have much of it left. Just because one likes some method, it doesn't mean that it is most effective for one.

There are also different kinds of vipassana (Goenka, Mahasi, Ajahn Naeb, Ajahn Chan, etc). Which one is most appropriate?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by retrofuturist » Sun May 27, 2012 10:45 pm

Greetings Alex,

Sorry, I do not see the connection between what you have written, nor Cittasanto's question that I responded to.

You're saying that the "other condition today" is the absence of a Sammasambuddha "who could point out the mistakes of people". Fair enough, I suppose... it's one of the better reasons I've heard, though it doesn't change the actual challenge at hand - it only changes the quality of personal instruction available.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by Alex123 » Sun May 27, 2012 11:40 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Alex,

Sorry, I do not see the connection between what you have written, nor Cittasanto's question that I responded to.

You're saying that the "other condition today" is the absence of a Sammasambuddha "who could point out the mistakes of people". Fair enough, I suppose... it's one of the better reasons I've heard, though it doesn't change the actual challenge at hand - it only changes the quality of personal instruction available.

Metta,
Retro. :)
bold is mine. That can make almost all the difference. If a person gets incorrect instruction (which may or may not have worked for someone else), then no major progress can be made.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by hanzze_ » Mon May 28, 2012 2:50 am

Cittasanto wrote:Hi Hanzee
these where qualified within the context of the line they were originally found in.
there has not been any demonstrable examples of difference from now & what would of been present in the time of the Buddha or before.

the questions are not relevant to me as there is a demonstrable effect of the teachings seen by myself and others which points to no differences not explainable from the teachings and confirmed by the practice (as already eluded to in reply to an earlier post to yours, which disqualified any levels or ability to understand as a qualified example as it shows different levels of ability to understand existed back then (look for Sahampati). to provide another example of this, there are gross & subtle manifestations of the root causes of greed, hatred & delusion, seen within the texts, so observed within the time of the Buddha, this is also seen by practitioners today, this is why for me there is no difference (as already explained). so as you are arguing for there being 1. different causes (of which you have admitted there are none) & 2. today is worse for practice due to some difference, as these would effect practice and the light the teachings should be viewed in, it is worth hearing what the problem is.
Dear Cittasanto,
maybe you have not seen that I divided conditions in two part. One are conditions as they are timeless for every being every time (at least the first three noble truth) and second are the conditions for every being to escape (the four noble truth) with is not timeless and depends on the mass of defilement (merits).
The first is timeless, the second is a question of effort (intention and it's tendency). Every being would be possible to come trough the gate, but its not a condition possible independently form right intentions over a long time. General tendencies have influence as well as they are caused by individuals. Think on admirable friends. If there are less holy people in the world, it's natural that there will be less who are friends of them or associate with them. If you like to change it (and its good not to practice just for one self), show that even the conditions of time and right intentions are not a matter of time. Can you do that? What is the problem with it?

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hanzze_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by hanzze_ » Mon May 28, 2012 2:59 am

jason c wrote:dear cittasanto,
once someone has found the path the buddha has described, and developed the technique of practice the buddha has described. they become their own teacher their own master, and can progress on the path at a pace that suits them. i see the world we live in today, with the financial difficulties, the mistreatment of animals,and the amount of drugs humans are taking just to deal with the pain. i also see the confusion and fighting that is caused by organised religions (buddhism included), and i think why is it so difficult for people to find the truth? and then i look at myself and i see the confusion, the hurdles, the difficulties, the chances, and the pain i endured to find this path. it is not as visible as one may think. if it was there would be one teaching, one practice, not all these different sects. the teachings of the buddha are as relevant today as they were 2500yrs ago. so why aren't there more people practicing why is the world in such a chaotic state. buddhism doesnt have to evolve, people still find it, but isn't it a crime for it not to evolve, not to reach its arms out and all those who are suffering. what is the harm in updating old stories to reach a new generation? its selfish of us not to!
metta,
jason
Pull our your own share, what is the problem to walk the eightfold path. Do you like to change the the truth of suffering, the origin of suffering and its cessation? Dependent conditions can be just uprooted by depending uprooting and as the cause is the wrong self-believe its a matter of doing it by your self. The faster you do that the more you also chance the conditions for others in the world. As long one seeks for security in compound phenomena, suffering is present. Today people tend fanatical to seek refuge in it, no need to follow. The unbinding is always present. Better your conditions to it.

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by hanzze_ » Mon May 28, 2012 3:09 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Alex,

Sorry, I do not see the connection between what you have written, nor Cittasanto's question that I responded to.

You're saying that the "other condition today" is the absence of a Sammasambuddha "who could point out the mistakes of people". Fair enough, I suppose... it's one of the better reasons I've heard, though it doesn't change the actual challenge at hand - it only changes the quality of personal instruction available.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Dear Retro,
It would be not available even a Sammasambuddha would be present, if your conditions to see him as this are not timely. There are times when a sammasambuddha appears and there are times, there are no condition for it. Individual the quality of teachings are also up to oneself.

There are suttas when and what conditions are needed for the appearance of a Buddha and there are also suttas, which conditions are needed that Dhamma flourishes and there are conditions quoted when one individual is able to walk the path to it's aim.
All conditions are always related to the personality, to the quality of presence of the discernment regarding the "self". With its perfection conditions related to a being disappear.

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by retrofuturist » Mon May 28, 2012 3:29 am

Greetings hanzze,

Assuming I'm reading you correctly...

I agree that one needs wisdom &/or criteria to be able to discern a good teacher, and differentiate from those who are most excellent, those who are middling, and those who are inferior. Different wisdom and criteria will lead to different assessments, and there may be a degree of "different strokes, for different folks" too.
the quality of presence of the discernment regarding the "self". With its perfection conditions related to a being disappear.
And here we appear to be going full circle back to where our discussion started... though you'll have to excuse me if I've misinterpreted what you're trying to communicate.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by hanzze_ » Mon May 28, 2012 3:34 am

I am sure that this circle goes on, it's a matter of conditions. So is the gain of wisdom a matter of time or something that can come out of nothing?

Our intentions have actually very much power if we can see the crap between past and presents. Never forget, the world is what your are making out of it all the time. It's just your world and the conditions you might bring. Or is there an outside world?
Last edited by hanzze_ on Mon May 28, 2012 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by retrofuturist » Mon May 28, 2012 3:36 am

Greetings Hanzze,
hanzze_ wrote:It's just your world and the conditions you might bring.
I agree, but unless you want to follow the path of the paccekabuddhas, it is good to learn what we can from the best sources available at any one time.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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hanzze_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by hanzze_ » Mon May 28, 2012 3:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Hanzze,
hanzze_ wrote:It's just your world and the conditions you might bring.
I agree, but unless you want to follow the path of the paccekabuddhas, it is good to learn what we can from the best sources available at any one time.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yes, but that is conditioned and depends on our days, past intentions and many who carry it (external reminders if we do not our self). To gain passekabuddha hood is also conditioned individual, but not so much in regard of a available teaching. I guess we need to remember that everything is always present, its just about the tools do dig it up and there are days, when people are digging much more in the outside world, we can call it an materialistic digging time and that gives a lot of dust.
Last edited by hanzze_ on Mon May 28, 2012 3:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by manas » Mon May 28, 2012 3:48 am

befriend wrote:im not sure what the mode of dress for women in india/nepal was but living in the US and watching television for 10 minutes and you are bombarded with breasts. and what is the cause of lust to arise? focusing on beauty. granted its my own will to look at the breasts but it make it a lot easier for me to practice renunciation if women covered up more. not that im at a point in my life where i want women to cover up, im not that spiritual. ha. im just making a statement that practicing now may be harder than practicing then what with all the lustful ads.
Hi befriend,

I found, by accident, a wonderful solution for that particular torment. When my TV stopped working, I did not bother to get it fixed. It just sits there, un-useable. And after what you just wrote, i'm thinking of putting it in the shed, maybe even retiring it permanently. Thank you for kindly reminding me of why I'm better off not having one.

:namaste:
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Cittasanto
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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by Cittasanto » Mon May 28, 2012 7:39 am

hanzze_ wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Hi Hanzee
these where qualified within the context of the line they were originally found in.
there has not been any demonstrable examples of difference from now & what would of been present in the time of the Buddha or before.

the questions are not relevant to me as there is a demonstrable effect of the teachings seen by myself and others which points to no differences not explainable from the teachings and confirmed by the practice (as already eluded to in reply to an earlier post to yours, which disqualified any levels or ability to understand as a qualified example as it shows different levels of ability to understand existed back then (look for Sahampati). to provide another example of this, there are gross & subtle manifestations of the root causes of greed, hatred & delusion, seen within the texts, so observed within the time of the Buddha, this is also seen by practitioners today, this is why for me there is no difference (as already explained). so as you are arguing for there being 1. different causes (of which you have admitted there are none) & 2. today is worse for practice due to some difference, as these would effect practice and the light the teachings should be viewed in, it is worth hearing what the problem is.
Dear Cittasanto,
maybe you have not seen that I divided conditions in two part. One are conditions as they are timeless for every being every time (at least the first three noble truth) and second are the conditions for every being to escape (the four noble truth) with is not timeless and depends on the mass of defilement (merits).
The first is timeless, the second is a question of effort (intention and it's tendency). Every being would be possible to come trough the gate, but its not a condition possible independently form right intentions over a long time. General tendencies have influence as well as they are caused by individuals. Think on admirable friends. If there are less holy people in the world, it's natural that there will be less who are friends of them or associate with them. If you like to change it (and its good not to practice just for one self), show that even the conditions of time and right intentions are not a matter of time. Can you do that? What is the problem with it?
Hi Hanzee,
All four Noble truths are timeless, all enlightened beings will reach the final goal through following the Eighforld Path. Whether they will teach or have the ability to teach is not guaranteed though, however the teachings pointing directly to the deathless are still available, at the very least through the canon.
You seam to believe that it is impossible to reach enlightenment today, without many lifetimes of practice (or that it is impossible to do good) which is not the case, as it is how we practice the dhamma in conformity with the dhamma in the here and now which makes the difference.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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hanzze_
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Re: Other conditions today???

Post by hanzze_ » Mon May 28, 2012 8:44 am

Dear Cittasanto,
You put some perceptions in that what is written. Once again, there are conditions that one is able to join the path even it is always there. And those conditions are not always there, if so, we would not need to put effort into awakening.

And they are also conditioned by so called outside things (which are also conditioned by ones personal past) like climate, necessaries...

But to give you some rest (which is actually not good, because conditions like you have today might not come easy again) here something which should not make you rest but inspire to dig:
Groundwater

The Buddha is the Dhamma; the Dhamma is the Buddha. The Dhamma the Buddha awakened to is something always there in the world. It hasn't disappeared. It's like groundwater. Whoever digs a well down to the level of the groundwater will see water. It's not the case that that person created or fashioned the water into being. All he's done is to put his strength into digging the well so that it's deep enough to reach the water already there.

So if we have any discernment, we'll realize that we're not far from the Buddha at all. We're sitting right in front of him right now. Whenever we understand the Dhamma, we see the Buddha. Those who are intent on practicing the Dhamma continuously — wherever they sit, stand, or walk — are sure to hear the Buddha's Dhamma at all times.

Image

It's All Right Here

The Buddha is the Dhamma; the Dhamma is the Buddha. He didn't take away the knowledge he awakened to. He left it right here. To put it in simple terms, it's like the teachers in schools. They haven't been teachers from birth. They had to study the course of study for teachers before they could be teachers, teaching in school and getting paid. After a while, they'll die away — away from being teachers. But you can say that in a way the teachers don't die. The qualities that make people into teachers remain right here. It's the same with the Buddha. The noble truths that made him the Buddha still remain right here. They haven't run off anywhere at all.
It's done by you past merits if you have seen the good teachings as they are. So it's good to show gratitude for them (your past deeds) and do not wast them. There are less who catches times when they are able to gain release. Conditions are changing and your possibilities are not constant to be able to get into the stream.

additional: Maybe the Jataka 77 (as I just saw that) is an additional inspiration to move on and about ones rare chance and merits to be able to face something special even the ("general" outside) conditions are not very well. I saw there was also a discussion about here on DW (Mahāsupina Jātaka: The Sixteen Dreams of King Pasenadi)

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