Regarding MN 64
1. Buddha didn't even hint "no kilesa in infant" anywhere.
2. 'identicalization' (by some people) of five lower fetters (regarding infant) with all kilesas [to be able to claim categorically as "no kilesa"] shows (1) their level of understanding in Dhamma, OR (2) worse, deliberate equivocation to defend what cannot be defended, from the start.
3. The flaw (of Mālunkyāputta's answer) which was to be potentially pointed out, refuted, chided and confuted by the wanderers of other sects was clearly and beautifully pointed out by the Buddha using an infant simile. It is used by Buddha in order to be regarded as a potential point of being ridiculed by wanderers of other sects, if Mālunkyāputta continued to hold his explanation of lower fetters.
4. I.B. Horner's usage of second conditional in this sentence clearly conveyed about "lower fetters" in an infant. ..... (("For, Māluṅkyāputta,
if there were not ‘own body’ for an innocent baby boy lying on his back, whence could there arise for him the view of ‘own body’? A leaning to the view of ‘own body’ indeed lies latent in him."))
5. Equivocation by Repeated identicalization of "no lower fetters in infant ... [even if it
were true]" with "no kilesa in infant" by some people to defend what cannot be defended clearly showed where one of the Achilles heels of this version DO lies. As long as such equivocation exists, it will always continue to be the point of easy target for confutation even by the "wanderers of other sects".
ps: If Buddha's suttas are to be quoted, it should be quoted intelligently, unbiasedly, undistortedly with right intention for the sake of Buddha's teachings; not for the sake of defending other versions, unsuccessfully.
Bhikkhu Sujato
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato
So i have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s monastery. There the Buddha addressed the mendicants:
“Mendicants!”
“Venerable sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:
“Mendicants, do you remember the five lower fetters that I taught?”
When he said this, Venerable Māluṅkyaputta said to him:
“Sir, I remember them.”
“But how do you remember them?”
“I remember the lower fetters taught by the Buddha as follows: identity view, doubt, misapprehension of precepts and observances, sensual desire, and ill will. That’s how I remember the five lower fetters taught by the Buddha.”
“Who on earth do you remember being taught the five lower fetters in that way? Wouldn’t the wanderers who follow other paths fault you using the simile of the infant? For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’, so how could identity view possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to identity view still lies within them. A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘teachings’, so how could doubt about the teachings possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to doubt still lies within them. A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘precepts’, so how could misapprehension of precepts and observances possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to misapprehension of precepts and observances still lies within them. A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘sensual pleasures’, so how could desire for sensual pleasures possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to sensual desire still lies within them. A little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘sentient beings’, so how could ill will for sentient beings possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to ill will still lies within them. Wouldn’t the wanderers who follow other paths fault you using the simile of the infant?”
When he said this, Venerable Ānanda said to the Buddha:
“Now is the time, Blessed One! Now is the time, Holy One! May the Buddha teach the five lower fetters. The mendicants will listen and remember it.”....
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I.B. Horner
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/horner
Thus have i heard: at one time the Lord was staying near Sāvatthī in the Jeta Grove in Anāthapiṇḍika's monastery. While he was there, the Lord addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." "Revered One," these monks answered the Lord in assent. The Lord spoke thus:
"Do you, monks, remember that I taught you about the five fetters binding to the lower (shore)?" When this had been said, the venerable Māluṅkyāputta spoke thus to the Lord: "Yes, I, revered sir, remember that the Lord taught that there are five fetters binding to the lower (shore)." "But do you, Māluṅkyāputta, remember it as it was spoken by me, when I taught you about the five fetters binding to the lower (shore)?" "I, revered sir, remember that the Lord taught that false view of own body is a fetter binding to the lower (shore). I, revered sir, remember that perplexity is a fetter binding to the lower (shore). I, revered sir, remember that clinging to rites and customs is a fetter binding to the lower (shore). I, revered sir, remember that desire for sense-pleasures is a fetter binding to the lower (shore). I, revered sir, remember that malevolence is a fetter binding to the lower (shore). It is thus that I, revered sir, remember the five fetters binding to the lower (shore) as taught by the Lord."
"And about whom do you, Māluṅkyāputta, remember that I thus taught the five fetters binding to the lower (shore)? Would not wanderers belonging to other sects chide you with the simile of the baby? For, Māluṅkyāputta, if there were not ‘own body’ for an innocent baby boy lying on his back, whence could there arise for him the view of ‘own body’? A leaning to the view of ‘own body’ indeed lies latent in him.
Māluṅkyāputta, if there were not ‘things’ for an innocent baby boy lying on his back, whence could there arise for him perplexity about things! A leaning to perplexity indeed lies latent in him.
Māluṅkyāputta, if there were not ‘habits’ for an innocent baby boy lying on his back, whence could there arise for him clinging to rites and customs? A leaning to clinging to rites and customs indeed lies latent in him.
Māluṅkyāputta, if there were not ‘sense-pleasures’ for an innocent baby boy lying on his back, whence could there arise for him desire for sense-pleasures among the sense-pleasures? A leaning to attachment to sense-pleasures indeed lies latent in him.
Māluṅkyāputta, if there were not ‘beings’ for an innocent baby boy lying on his back, whence could there arise for him malevolence towards beings? A leaning to malevolence indeed lies latent in him.
Now, Māluṅkyāputta, would not wanderers belonging to other sects chide you with this simile of the baby?" When this had been said, the venerable Ānanda spoke thus to the Lord: "Lord, this is the time, Well-farer, this is the time that the Lord might teach (us) about the five fetters binding to the lower (shore). When the monks have heard the Lord they will remember." ....
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Bhikkhu Bodhi
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/bodhi
Thus have i heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Sāvatthī in Jeta’s Grove, Anāthapiṇḍika’s Park. There he addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Bhikkhus.”—“Venerable sir,” they replied. The Blessed One said this:
“Bhikkhus, do you remember the five lower fetters as taught by me?”
When this was said, the venerable Mālunkyāputta replied: “Venerable sir, I remember the five lower fetters as taught by the Blessed One.”
“But, Mālunkyāputta, in what way do you remember the five lower fetters as taught by me?”
“Venerable sir, I remember identity view as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember doubt as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember adherence to rules and observances as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember sensual desire as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. I remember ill will as a lower fetter taught by the Blessed One. It is in this way, venerable sir, that I remember the five lower fetters as taught by the Blessed One.”
“Mālunkyāputta, to whom do you remember my having taught these five lower fetters in that way? Would not the wanderers of other sects confute you with the simile of the infant? For a young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘identity,’ so how could identity view arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to identity view lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘teachings,’ so how could doubt about the teachings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to doubt lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘rules,’ so how could adherence to rules and observances arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to adhere to rules and observances lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘sensual pleasures,’ so how could sensual desire arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to sensual lust lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘beings,’ so how could ill will towards beings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to ill will lies within him. Would not the wanderers of other sects confute you with this simile of the infant?”
Thereupon, the venerable Ānanda said: “It is the time, Blessed One, it is the time, Sublime One, for the Blessed One to teach the five lower fetters. Having heard it from the Blessed One, the bhikkhus will remember it....
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