Craving while being mindful?

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reflection
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by reflection » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:58 pm

Well, this is interesting. I think I would say no.

One can only be fully mindful when the five hindrances are not active. This means there is also no craving (or at least no sensual craving) because this is one of the hindrances.
here is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
However, with less mindfulness it is still possible to see the craving. It doesn't mean all mindfulness is gone immediately when one of the hindrances knocks at the door. This is partly why the hindrances are also a foundation of mindfulness (satipatthana sutta), I think. Of course you can also reflect on the hindrances when they are gone.


With metta,
Reflection

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adosa
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by adosa » Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:42 am

DarwidHalim wrote:......
Thank you Darwid for the thoughtful post. :anjali:

I'm just curious as to which school of Buddhism you have most trained in.

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by adosa » Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:06 am

reflection wrote:Well, this is interesting. I think I would say no.

One can only be fully mindful when the five hindrances are not active. This means there is also no craving (or at least no sensual craving) because this is one of the hindrances.
here is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
However, with less mindfulness it is still possible to see the craving. It doesn't mean all mindfulness is gone immediately when one of the hindrances knocks at the door. This is partly why the hindrances are also a foundation of mindfulness (satipatthana sutta), I think. Of course you can also reflect on the hindrances when they are gone.


With metta,
Reflection
Thank you. This is the angle from which I was asking my original question but the other posts also highlighted some very important and well thought out points.

I've been in a cycle lately where I've been bothered by craving and other stresses quite a bit. I've noticed that as long as I'm focused on the now, the task at hand, I spend less of my day craving, which of course then, means the day is a lot more pleasant. I've also noticed that what happens immediately as I lose mindfulness (or maybe a better term would be concentration) is that the mind-movie or chatter starts running in the head. If I notice that dreamworld for what it is, I can get right back to the breath, the body, or whatever object of observation and I become more at ease.

In regards to some other posts, I've had some nasty dental work done over the past six months or so. When I'm in the chair and the 10 numbing needles are jammed throughout the gum line, I found if I just concentrate on the pain, it's not really so bad. Of course, I suppose I could try the whole procedure without pain-killers or numbing agents but I'm not there yet. :smile:

However, I am finding craving a bit more slippery. Where I have the willpower to deal with pain, I don't have the same with craving. I'm having a hard time staying with the feeling of craving or even clearly seeing it. I just know it's there and it gets annoying. It's a little pest until it gets fed, so to speak. So, in order just have a more peaceful mind I've been finding mindfulness really helps in this role. In the past I viewed the role of mindfulness as one in which to cultivate insight, and I'm not minimizing that fact in any way, but it also seems to have additional benefits. For me the practical, daily refuge in mindfulness is a worthy enough goal.

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by ground » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:08 am

adosa wrote:Can craving arise while being completely mindful?
If taking Satipatthana Sutta as reference then no, that's impossible.
And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
adosa wrote: Or at the moment craving arises, is that a signal that mindfulness has stopped and mental proliferation or fabrication has started?
Yes. Or to phrase it differently: a signal of having been caught up. And it may be considered to be a reminder of mindfulness.

Kind regards

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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:23 am

TMingyur wrote:
adosa wrote:Can craving arise while being completely mindful?
If taking Satipatthana Sutta as reference then no, that's impossible.
The real question is can there be mindfulness of arisen craving? Yes.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by danieLion » Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:59 am

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
adosa wrote:Can craving arise while being completely mindful?
If taking Satipatthana Sutta as reference then no, that's impossible.
The real question is can there be mindfulness of arisen craving? Yes.
Word, Tilt.
Dukkha is to be understood/comprehended (first enobling truth). Without sati, this is impossible.
Goodwill,
Daniel

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ground
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by ground » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:22 am

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
adosa wrote:Can craving arise while being completely mindful?
If taking Satipatthana Sutta as reference then no, that's impossible.
The real question is can there be mindfulness of arisen craving? Yes.
Your thought may appear to yourself as "real" ...

However the question of the OP was as has been quoted. And my answer to this question has been given.

Kind regards

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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:37 am

TMingyur wrote: Your thought may appear to yourself as "real" ...
What are you talking about? Hard to say, but you have a tendency to play these funny little words games.
However the question of the OP was as has been quoted. And my answer to this question has been given.
And I obviously rephrased it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:44 am

Greetings,
TMingyur wrote:
adosa wrote:Can craving arise while being completely mindful?
If taking Satipatthana Sutta as reference then no, that's impossible.
And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What then of...
There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion.
When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion.
"There is the case where a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances. And how does a monk remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the five hindrances? There is the case where, there being sensual desire present within, a monk discerns that 'There is sensual desire present within me.' Or, there being no sensual desire present within, he discerns that 'There is no sensual desire present within me.' He discerns how there is the arising of unarisen sensual desire. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of sensual desire once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of sensual desire that has been abandoned.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by Ben » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:49 am

Nice post, Retro.

I'd also like to know what is going on when one reaches for a cigarette, chocolate, coffee, or other object of sensual desire, and directly perceives the presence of craving. Is one not mindful of arisen craving?
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by ground » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:50 am

tiltbillings wrote:
However the question of the OP was as has been quoted. And my answer to this question has been given.
And I obviously rephrased it.
"Re-phrased" implies that there has been "something" ("it") that has been phrased once in the OP and that you provided an alternative phrasing for this very same "it". Therefore your "re-phrasing 'it'" is not very likely. What however is undoubtedly the case is that you have expressed your own thought and that this thought of yours did not give rise to the question expressed in the OP.

Do you want me to answer your question too after having answered the question of the OP?


Kind regards

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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:57 am

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
However the question of the OP was as has been quoted. And my answer to this question has been given.
And I obviously rephrased it.
"Re-phrased" implies that there has been "something" ("it") that has been phrased once in the OP and that you provided an alternative phrasing for this very same "it". Therefore your "re-phrasing 'it'" is not very likely. What however is undoubtedly the case is that you have expressed your own thought and that this thought of yours did not give rise to the question expressed in the OP.

Do you want me to answer your question too after having answered the question of the OP?


Kind regards
Now I know you are just pulling my leg with all of this. Certainly you must see that your question about answering my question implies that there has been "something" ("it") that has been phrased once in the OP and that you provided an alternative phrasing for this very same "it". And so your response is not very likely. What however is undoubtedly the case is that you have expressed your own thought and that this thought of yours did not give rise to the question expressed in the rephrasing of the OP.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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ground
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by ground » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:30 am

TMingyur wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
However the question of the OP was as has been quoted. And my answer to this question has been given.
And I obviously rephrased it.
"Re-phrased" implies that there has been "something" ("it") that has been phrased once in the OP and that you provided an alternative phrasing for this very same "it". Therefore your "re-phrasing 'it'" is not very likely. What however is undoubtedly the case is that you have expressed your own thought and that this thought of yours did not give rise to the question expressed in the OP.

Do you want me to answer your question too after having answered the question of the OP?


Kind regards
tiltbillings wrote:Now I know you are just pulling my leg with all of this. Certainly you must see that your question about answering my question implies that there has been "something" ("it") that has been phrased once in the OP and that you provided an alternative phrasing for this very same "it".
Well neither did I provide an altervative phrasing nor did I claim to do so.
tiltbillings wrote: What however is undoubtedly the case is that you have expressed your own thought and that this thought of yours did not give rise to the question expressed in the rephrasing of the OP.
That is undoubtedly the case yes.

Kind regards

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ground
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by ground » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:32 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
TMingyur wrote:
adosa wrote:Can craving arise while being completely mindful?
If taking Satipatthana Sutta as reference then no, that's impossible.
And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What then of...
See there are several alternatives.
Either what you are referring to has to be different from craving (for sense-objects)
or
we conclude that the sutta is inherently self-contradictory
or
there is a rationale based on the sutta itself that "craving" is definitely not included in the sphere of "clinging to anything in the world"
or
the sutta text referred to here is a bad translation
or
the question of the OP refers to something and the responses to something else
or ...
{more possibilities}

My response to the OP clearly is based on the premise that
1. "Craving" necessarily refers to sense objects and although craving (for sense objects) belongs to the sphere of passion-delusion-hindrances passion-delusion-hindrances have a wider scope and that
2. craving (for sense objects) is included in the sphere of "clinging to anything in the world" and that
3. the Satipatthana Sutta text is an appropriate reference

Based on these premises my answer is correct and I do not see any reason why not to apply these remises because if craving arises then it is due to a momentary break down of mindfulness. However in the next moment of becoming aware of this very craving craving is dissolved and mindfulness re-established.

Kind regards

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tiltbillings
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:38 am

TMingyur wrote:That is undoubtedly the case yes.
That is that you are stating that that that in your sentence is a thing that is something that is somehow in someway the case that is without doubt. Well, that is clear now.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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