Craving while being mindful?

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adosa
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Craving while being mindful?

Post by adosa » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:44 pm

Can craving arise while being completely mindful? Or at the moment craving arises, is that a signal that mindfulness has stopped and mental proliferation or fabrication has started?

Thanks

adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

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kirk5a
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by kirk5a » Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:54 pm

I have been pondering that myself. I think this sutta is important to help understand how this works.

(This is Ven. Malunkyaputta speaking here:)
Seeing a form
— mindfulness lapsed —
attending
to the theme of 'endearing,'
impassioned in mind,
one feels
and remains fastened there.
One's feelings, born of the form,
grow numerous,
Greed & annoyance
injure one's mind.
Thus amassing stress,
one is said to be far from Unbinding.
...
Not impassioned with forms
— seeing a form with mindfulness firm —
dispassioned in mind,
one knows
and doesn't remain fastened there.
While one is seeing a form
— and even experiencing feeling —
it falls away and doesn't accumulate.
Thus one fares mindfully.
Thus not amassing stress,
one is said to be
in the presence of Unbinding.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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RMSmith
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by RMSmith » Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:19 pm

Of course. But you don't react to it ... only recognize ... due to being mindful.

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DarwidHalim
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by DarwidHalim » Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:29 am

Yes. Not only craving. Even anger, jealousy, all of them come out.

However, there are a big differences for someone who not mindful, who just mindful (but haven't realized emptiness), and who has experienced the emptiness.

For someone who are not mindful, when anger, jealously, craving arise, they will go haywire.

For someone who just mindful (who haven't experience the emptiness), the best thing they can experience is knowing the arising of that anger, craving, jealousy, etc. Since they haven't experience emptiness, the best thing they can do is just relying on antidote, such as oh don't get angry, no point to be jealous, all are impermanent, don't attach to this and that. All of them are antidote.

These are all good. But, these method are artificial.

But for those who has trained until they realize emptiness, they reach the state of the union between appearances and emptiness, the union between diversities and emptiness.

Because they can see their is no self in the craving which is arising, in the anger which is arising, in the jealousy which is arising, they are unaffected by all of anger, jealousy, craving etc. There are no antidote at all in calming them. Really naked. Just like that, not affected at all.

For someone who has realized emptiness, when the anger arise, in one corner in their mind, there will be a notion of now anger arises, now craving arises, now jealousy arises. But at another corner the wisdom of emptiness and the confident in it, will just look at it and know strait away, this is not anger, this is not jealousy, because they know exactly through seeing all of them as being no identity. Because they see vividly there is no identity, thy know exactly this is not anger, or craving, EVEN when their mind make a story this is anger, jealousy and so on.

The story of mind can fool the ignorant. But, the story of mind cannot fool anyone who has realize the non-identity (wisdom of emptiness).

When the wisdom of emptiness has improved so strong, the story of mind telling anger, jealousy, or craving will no longer appear. At that time, every diversity of feeling, every diversity of appearances, every diversity of thought are the expression of the dharmakaya.

The energy of anger which is feeled as something destructive, now due to your ability that as actually the expression of dharmakaya will just give you bliss, serene, and restful.

Everything will be like that.

You will naturally free from attachment, grasping, etc. even you want to grasp, you also cannot grasp anymore. Even you want to attach, you also cannot attach anymore. All of them because your wisdom of no identity has been fully develop, where you can see vividly both your side and other side have no identity. You cannot have any basis at all to grasp or attach or to crave. Absolutely free.

In order to make you be able to see the emptiness of craving, that is why never ever remove or modify your craving. Same thing with anger, when anger arise, never ever modify or change your anger. All of them are the opportunity for you to keep quiet and just see them, actually who are they. Slowly you will come to this no identity notion.

Same thing with pain. Actually pain is a very good opportunity for the meditator to have the chance to see the true face of that pain. If you can see the true nature of that pain, which is no identity and you can see you yourself also has no identity straight away your grasping gone. The pain is no longer pain, that feelin is just there, but you no longer see that as pain. You will see they are not disturbances, and not pain. You can feel extremely comfortable with that feeling which previously you called pain. That feeling will not gone. It is still there. But one thing, you will just feel serene and restful with that feeling.

When you can master it, you have realize the union of feeling and emptiness. From that point onwards, you are not in the fangs of feeling anymore.

All feelings are welcome, all appearances are welcome, all diversity are welcome.

In all those diversity of feeling, appearances, whatever they are, you are just serene and restful.

That is the power of wisdom of emptiness.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!

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Goofaholix
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by Goofaholix » Sun Feb 19, 2012 8:54 am

adosa wrote:Can craving arise while being completely mindful? Or at the moment craving arises, is that a signal that mindfulness has stopped and mental proliferation or fabrication has started?
Yes, of course it does, the body is always craving something, food, warmth, sleep, oxygen.

Where mindfulness and wisdom comes in is that fully knowing craving helps prevent it from evolving into clinging.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Ben
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by Ben » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:10 am

Hi Goof,
Goofaholix wrote:
adosa wrote:Can craving arise while being completely mindful? Or at the moment craving arises, is that a signal that mindfulness has stopped and mental proliferation or fabrication has started?
Yes, of course it does, the body is always craving something, food, warmth, sleep, oxygen.
Respectfully, I disagree with your comment above. If one can develop upekkha with respect to vedana then one arrest craving at that point.
Goofaholix wrote:Where mindfulness and wisdom comes in is that fully knowing craving helps prevent it from evolving into clinging.
Certainly, this is true. One can definitely be more mindful of when one craves rather than giving in to the object of craving.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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retrofuturist
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:16 am

Greetings,
Ben wrote:Respectfully, I disagree with your comment above. If one can develop upekkha with respect to vedana then one arrest craving at that point.
Yes... and going even further, as those things were described, they sound more like depictions of biological function, as opposed to craving (which is volitional, and founded in greed, delusion or aversion).

If it could be called "craving", it's not craving in the context of tanha, as taught by the Buddha... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... tanha.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Ben
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by Ben » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:21 am

Hi Retro,
When one observes closely one can separate the experience of vedana (hunger, chill, etc) from the affective response of craving to the vedana.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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tiltbillings
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:47 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Ben wrote:Respectfully, I disagree with your comment above. If one can develop upekkha with respect to vedana then one arrest craving at that point.
Yes... and going even further, as those things were described, they sound more like depictions of biological function, as opposed to craving (which is volitional, and founded in greed, delusion or aversion).

If it could be called "craving", it's not craving in the context of tanha, as taught by the Buddha... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... tanha.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
Uncertain as to what you are saying here. Are you saying we cannot be mindful of tanha?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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retrofuturist
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:58 am

Greetings Tilt,

Quite how you came to that reading, I have no idea. Maybe you didn't see it in terms of the flow of the conversation and read the post in isolation?

Anyway, I was saying that what Goof was calling "craving", isn't tanha.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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tiltbillings
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by tiltbillings » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:19 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,

Quite how you came to that reading, I have no idea. Maybe you didn't see it in terms of the flow of the conversation and read the post in isolation?

Anyway, I was saying that what Goof was calling "craving", isn't tanha.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Okay.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Goofaholix
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by Goofaholix » Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:00 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Yes... and going even further, as those things were described, they sound more like depictions of biological function, as opposed to craving (which is volitional, and founded in greed, delusion or aversion).
Yes I agree the examples I listed are biological rather than volitional, but I think this is the root from which tanha springs, mix it with a little avija and Bob's your uncle. So I think it's worth cultivating an awareness of it at the most basic level. I find there is constantly an undercurrent of "wanting" even when there is nothing in particular I want and being aware of that helps prevent it coming to the surface taking over the attention of the mind.

Looking at this passage it does appear to be more all encompassing than the definition you gave;
"And where does this craving, when arising, arise? And where, when dwelling, does it dwell? Whatever seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world: that is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

"And what seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world? The eye seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

"The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

"Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

"Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

"Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

"Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

"Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

"Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

"Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

"Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

"Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas seems endearing and agreeable in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

— DN 22
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by bodom » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:24 pm

"Ajahn Sumedho tells the story of the time when a group of Thai doctors and nurses came to visit Ajahn Chah. One nurse was very beautiful. After the visitors left, Ajahn Chah asked Sumedho what he had thought of the pretty nurse. Sumedho replied in Thai, 'I like, but I do not want.' Ajahn Chah nodded approvingly and said, 'Not bad, Sumedho, not bad.' This story poignantly illustrates the Buddha's teaching of nonclinging, of being at ease with life as it is. You do not have to crave simply because you like something — your mind can rest easy in the presence of what is attractive."


http://www.spiritualityandpractice.com/ ... p?id=18241" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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mikenz66
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:58 pm

Hi Bodom,

That's a good example. My recollection from one of Ajahn Sumedho's recorded talks was that there were many attractive nurse, but I may be misremembering. He also said that Ajahn Chah was so impressed that he put the "Chorp, mai ao." (like, don't want) line into all his Dhamma talks for the next week or two...

:anjali:
Mike

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Goofaholix
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Re: Craving while being mindful?

Post by Goofaholix » Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:21 pm

mikenz66 wrote:there were many attractive nurse
In Thailand? mai na cheua.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

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