Why is Nirvana permanent?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Circle5
Posts: 899
Joined: Wed May 31, 2017 2:14 am

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by Circle5 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:29 pm

1: All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner; they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made.
Sure, it's an organism processing information that goes into it. It might process some electromagnetic wave as color blue or color yellow. But yet, he is processing something. He is not processing no object at all.
Fwiw i also think he is wrong about things but for other reasons than you, mainly his theories on infinite number of universes, lack of definitions for that "consciousness" of his but all in all he has the correct idea about time.
Infinite number of universes ? I've only saw the 16 + 20 min lecture of his. I'll try to find more about what he says, cause many things are good food for thought. But it's strange that he believes in infinite universes since he probably stands with the copenhaga interpretation not with the many-worlds one.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:03 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:29 pm
Infinite number of universes ? I've only saw the 16 + 20 min lecture of his. I'll try to find more about what he says, cause many things are good food for thought. But it's strange that he believes in infinite universes since he probably stands with the copenhaga interpretation not with the many-worlds one.
Tbh it seems like he is somewhat of a showman and got a lot of inspiration directly or indirectly from Buddhism.
The scientific theories are eons behind the Dhamma but i think the experiments are good to know because they complement the Dhamma and is something people can get a lot of conviction from.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1659
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:49 am

Only everlasting nirvana is a worthy goal.

A temporary nirvana would be a silly goal.

justindesilva
Posts: 845
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by justindesilva » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:14 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:03 pm
Circle5 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:29 pm
Infinite number of universes ? I've only saw the 16 + 20 min lecture of his. I'll try to find more about what he says, cause many things are good food for thought. But it's strange that he believes in infinite universes since he probably stands with the copenhaga interpretation not with the many-worlds one.
Tbh it seems like he is somewhat of a showman and got a lot of inspiration directly or indirectly from Buddhism.
The scientific theories are eons behind the Dhamma but i think the experiments are good to know because they complement the Dhamma and is something people can get a lot of conviction from.
One thing that we understand from modern science and astronomy is that there is nothing permanent. All phenomena ( damma) is subject to momentary changes as the universe or universes is in an eternal flux and rotation. Though nirvana is a state that does not create or originate and is, boundless as said in Bahiya sutta, we cannot hence sugest it to be permanent.
The only permanent thing in this damma is impermanence.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1659
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:19 am

nirvana is a refuge


annihilation isn't a refuge

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:12 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:19 am
nirvana is a refuge


annihilation isn't a refuge
relax it is only annihilation of suffering
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1659
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:21 am

I'm trying to correct a wrong view

it seems to be a desire to be annihilated

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:11 am

it seems to me like you maybe confusing the words Cessation and Annihilation, do you think it is possible?
Ie, do you think one can rightfully say these;
"The Tathagatas teach the annihilation of the Five Aggregates"
"The Tathagatas teach the annihilation Samsaric existence"
"The Tathagatas teach the annihilation of perception and feeling"
"The Tathagatas teach the annihilation of suffering"

Dinsdale
Posts: 6138
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:55 am

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:21 am
it seems to be a desire to be annihilated
Seeking permanence suggests a desire not to be annihilated. Grasping at further becoming, which is an aspect of tanha in the Second Noble Truth.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:15 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:55 am
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:21 am
it seems to be a desire to be annihilated
Seeking permanence suggests a desire not to be annihilated. Grasping at further becoming, which is an aspect of tanha in the Second Noble Truth.
:twothumbsup: :goodpost:

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 1659
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:10 pm

Nirvana obviously isn't becoming, although it is a state,
a dimension, a refuge, etc.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:52 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:10 pm
Nirvana obviously isn't becoming, although it is a state,
a dimension, a refuge, etc.
If you dont answer questions you make it impossible to talk to you, because Tathagata has supposedly said that such person is unfit to talk to.
It is called being evasive in the world in general.
If you dont want to answer those i posed i will ask simply what is it that makes Nibbana unique?

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:59 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:10 pm
Nirvana obviously isn't becoming, although it is a state,
a dimension
, a refuge, etc.
"Monks, there are these nine step-by-step dwellings. Which nine? The first jhāna, the second jhāna, the third jhāna, the fourth jhāna, the dimension of the infinitude of space, the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, the dimension of nothingness, the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, the cessation of perception & feeling. These are the nine step-by-step dwellings." [1]
This is what people keep saying that you seem to think it is a meditative state, one of the Arupa Jhanas.

Eternal, Permanent, Everlasting, Unmade Arupa Dimension. This is Impossible. This cannot exist.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:05 pm

inb4;
cessation of perception & feeling is dimension, that is false and not even a logical interpretation of the passage.
Cessation of perception and feeling is cessation of all Dimensions or any kind of material or immaterial existence.
This is is because perception and feeling are conjoined, they are same event basicly different interpretation.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Feeling, perception, & consciousness, friend: Are these qualities conjoined or disjoined? Is it possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them?"

"Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them."
Perception, Feeling, Consciousness these are all Aggregates, they also constitute the Immaterial Realms that can last for very long time but not eternally because there is no system that can eternally provide the conditions for continual arising of a formation material or immaterial, with or without a body.

Actually even an unformed formation would have the potential to gain footing or being formed somewhere if it was to be made somehow, otherwise it is postulating something in the impossible realm again. Ie unborn human would be born in human world.

Conceptual Nibbana, the Knowledge, the "Concept of a thing is not the Thing", in this sense Idea of Nibbana, imagination of Nibbana, Nibbana as we know it, That ceases with the cessation of Nama&Rupa. Nibbana is uncaused therefore not a formation.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:25 pm, edited 8 times in total.

User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 814
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:40 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by aflatun » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:47 pm

It’s pretty much a buyers market. You can have any doctrine of Nibbana you want!
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Google [Bot], Lankamed, NuanceOfSuchness and 90 guests