Why is Nirvana permanent?

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rightviewftw
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:15 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:10 pm
It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle,
the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,
Peace, the Deathless, the Blest, Safety,
the Wonderful, the Marvellous,
Nibbæna, Purity, Freedom,
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
I have no problem with this.
However ;
cappuccino wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:10 pm
It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle,
the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,
Peace, the Blest, Safety,
the Wonderful, the Marvellous,
Purity, Freedom,
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
Is not conceptualizing the same concept as this;
Supposedly"cappuccino" AS IF U WERE TO SAY wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:10 pm
It is the Unformed, the End,
the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle,
the Everlasting, the Invisible,
Peace, the Blest, Safety,
the Wonderful, the Marvellous,
Purity, Freedom,
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
Second lacks key characteristics, therefore incomplete and wrong in sense that it is not an accurate model of the supposed concept that it attempts to communicate. More so it is actually quite wrong because it conceptualizes something Impossible, as i previously explained ITT.

IE if i want to communicate the concept of a banana;
Id say yellow, fruit, impermanent, tasty, sausage shaped.
I think you would guess and conceptualize more or less the intended concept so if i tell you to get that you will resolve on getting a banana not a carpet or a potato.

However if i start taking out characteristics, you might resolve on getting me some random thing that fits the description.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
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cappuccino
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:25 pm

It is the Unformed, the Unconditioned, the End,
the Truth, the Other Shore, the Subtle,
the Everlasting, the Invisible, the Undiversified,
Peace, the Deathless, the Blest, Safety,
the Wonderful, the Marvellous,
Nibbæna, Purity, Freedom,
the Island,
the Refuge, the Beyond.
~ S 43.1-44
Don't wait, the time will never be just right

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rightviewftw
Posts: 1293
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:29 pm

:anjali:
It is not important to win this kind of debate on higher Dhammas.
However if one is unsure, i think that one should be aware of that doubt, as i think it changes the Practice focus quite a lot.
Not necessarily in a bad way. If i may speculate about a correlation between intellect and wisdom, to illustrate my point i would point to;IE Venerable Maha Moggalana developed bunch of powers and got Arahantship a lot faster (2x?) than Venerable Sariputta, the ladder (Ven. Sariputta) had higher aspiration for Wisdom and not much for magic i guess, however he was second best to The Tathagata in explaining things to people.

Maybe it is about asking the right questions but;
There are also Panna-Vimutti and Ceto-Vimutti terms, "Dry-Wisdom" approach, and maybe they overlap or support one another ie (see sutta below seemingly suggestive). I don't know the details but i would investigate meaning of these two categorizations and i would suspect that maybe it had to do (as an overlap perhaps) with one's intellectual understanding of the Highest Dhamma. I would look into that if i was not sure about the Nibbana stuff.
AN 4.170 PTS: A ii 156
Yuganaddha Sutta: In Tandem
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1998

On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!"

"Yes, friend," the monks responded.

Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four?

"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths."
Imho i think the attainment of Rupa and Arupa Jhanas is way overrated to the point that people think it is almost impossible, while it is just a matter of clear instruction, creating a supportive enviroment for cultivation of concentration and then not neglecting the training which is quite straight forward.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Complete Manual of Insight by Mahasi Sayadaw
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/
don't feed the trolls

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