Why is Nirvana permanent?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
rightviewftw
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:08 pm

boundless wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:50 pm
Maybe "permanent, eternal, not subject to change" are synononyms, maybe not
It was not meant litereally as synonym but as conveying a meaning a shared property.

All is happening, it dies and dies and dies, withouth an end in sight constantly, persistently, relentlessly, arising and ceasing, Samsara has this Deathless property in that it it gains footing in the Deathless. Nibbana is the Deathless.

rightviewftw
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:11 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:08 pm
Nibbana is the Deathless, Samsara[Suffering] non manifest

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DooDoot
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:15 pm

dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:27 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:55 am
Possibly, the term "a + pavattā" does not refer to the non-continuance of Nibbana but, instead, refers to the non-continuance of samsara, i.e. to non-continuance of 'vatta'.
This is a good example of how eternalists compartmentalize the teachings & literally deny them in order to justify their views. "It's just one thing that doesn't continue but some things do". This is obviously not what's meant.
Hi Dylan. I can only reiterate your probable serious misinterpretation of the term " "a + pavattā". With metta.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:33 am

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

Circle5
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by Circle5 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:16 am

deadmanwalkin wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:41 pm

Lanza's theory of a biocentric universe, is among the most credible ones it is hardly criticised for anything but being incomplete and is the theory closest to the Pali Canon as it is based on non-classical mechanics and the Copehagen Interpretation of quantum experiments which is the interpretation that works.

Second video goes into details for why he can say what he says, it also explains (somewhat poorly) what is locality and time and what we can test.

Third video shows a particular experiment which should be very illuminating about the meaning of time therefore in regards to permanence.
:goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost: :goodpost:

I've had pretty much exact ideas as Lanza and am quite surprised someone already thought them. Is he a buddhist ?

I also had the idea that logic is something very important. Without logic, nothing could exist in the first place. This takes some thinking to understand, but logic is required in order for anything to exist in the first place.

Second important idea that I had is that all miracles are done through placebo, and that placebo has to be understood in order to create a complete theory. Understanding placebo and logic are both fundamental in order to complete such a theory.

It is also important to note that perfecting this theory is much more difficult to do that it seems. I've tried too, it's not that simple as it looks. Every time you think you've figured something out, you get contradicted by something else. And that forces you to rethink the whole theory.

Circle5
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by Circle5 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:10 am

I've checked his theory, which is more of a refutation of materialism than a theory of it's own. Unfortunatelly there is not much of a theory and it is also wrong. It is even more easy to refute than what he himself is refuting. And it's nothing new, it's the same misunderstanding of quantum mechanics about consciousness creating the universe, neglecting the conditionality dependent on matter. It's rather a jump in the other extreme of materialism. Also, his theory does not provide any predictions, therefore it is not a scientific theory.

There is this Crackpot index that all scientist should check from time to time:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html

pegembara
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by pegembara » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:17 am

Permanence and impermanence are time bound.
The unconditioned is not time bound - so is neither permanent or impermanent which depends on time. It is beyond time(timeless)....and space.
There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no staying, no deceasing, no uprising. Not fixed, not movable, it has no support.
For the supported there is instability, for the unsupported there is no instability; when there is no instability there is serenity; when there is serenity there is no inclination: when there is no inclination there is no coming-and-going; when there is no coming-and-going there is no decease-and-uprising; when there is no decease-and-uprising there is neither "here" nor "beyond" nor "in between the two."
It's hard to see the unaffected,
for the truth is not easily seen.
Craving is pierced
in one who knows;
For one who sees,
there is nothing.
One who is dependent has wavering. One who is independent has no wavering. There being no wavering, there is calm. There being calm, there is no yearning. There being no yearning, there is no coming or going. There being no coming or going, there is no passing away or arising. There being no passing away or arising, there is neither a here nor a there nor a between-the-two.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

rightviewftw
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:01 am

Circle5 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:10 am
It is even more easy to refute than what he himself is refuting.
Lets hear it.

Circle5
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by Circle5 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:27 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:01 am
Circle5 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:10 am
It is even more easy to refute than what he himself is refuting.
Lets hear it.
It has been done millions of time. His theory is nothing new, it's the usual "everything comes from consciousness" theory based on flawed interpretation of quantum mechanics. There is nothing new in his theory. One can simply google "robert lazla debunked". I expected something much better or at least something new when I heard he is nominated for top 3 most important scientist alive by The Times magazine.

This theory is just like materialism, taking one of the 5 aggregates and saying all comes from there and ending up totally refuted by a billion things. For example color or light or etc. is created inside our brain, but it does not come out of nothing. That elecromagnetic energy from which it comes does exist. Humans all see pretty much the same colors, that's why we have red, yellow and green at traffic lights. Not to mention things like placebo should work even for amputees if such a theory would be correct.

There are billions of ways to refute this "everything comes from consciousness" idea. It's just like materialism, going into one extreme, saying everything comes from consciousness and totally ignoring the importance of matter. And it is no wonder people are laughing about him since a serious scientist should figure out this theory is wrong 5 minutes after hearing it.

To create a theory of everything, one that perfectly fits together the relationships between consciousness and matter, is much more difficult to do. I have tried too but there are many things that need to be taken into consideration, many things that need to fit. The moment you think you figured it out, you get refuted by something and need to rethink the theory completely.

If one is not careful about not getting refuted, it's very easy to end up with a Crackpot-theory in this field. That's why we even have a "Crackpot index" especially made for people trying to make such a theory in physics: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html

And remember last point on that list. If it doesn't make any predictions, it's not a theory.

rightviewftw
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:14 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:27 am
it's the usual "everything comes from consciousness" theory based on flawed interpretation of quantum mechanics.
Sounds familiar indeed.
1: All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner; they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made.
Fwiw i also think he is wrong about things but for other reasons than you, mainly his theories on infinite number of universes, lack of definitions for that "consciousness" of his but all in all he has the correct idea about time.

Circle5
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by Circle5 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:29 pm

1: All mental phenomena have mind as their forerunner; they have mind as their chief; they are mind-made.
Sure, it's an organism processing information that goes into it. It might process some electromagnetic wave as color blue or color yellow. But yet, he is processing something. He is not processing no object at all.
Fwiw i also think he is wrong about things but for other reasons than you, mainly his theories on infinite number of universes, lack of definitions for that "consciousness" of his but all in all he has the correct idea about time.
Infinite number of universes ? I've only saw the 16 + 20 min lecture of his. I'll try to find more about what he says, cause many things are good food for thought. But it's strange that he believes in infinite universes since he probably stands with the copenhaga interpretation not with the many-worlds one.

rightviewftw
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:03 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:29 pm
Infinite number of universes ? I've only saw the 16 + 20 min lecture of his. I'll try to find more about what he says, cause many things are good food for thought. But it's strange that he believes in infinite universes since he probably stands with the copenhaga interpretation not with the many-worlds one.
Tbh it seems like he is somewhat of a showman and got a lot of inspiration directly or indirectly from Buddhism.
The scientific theories are eons behind the Dhamma but i think the experiments are good to know because they complement the Dhamma and is something people can get a lot of conviction from.

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cappuccino
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:49 am

Only everlasting nirvana is a worthy goal.

A temporary nirvana would be a silly goal.

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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by justindesilva » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:14 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:03 pm
Circle5 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:29 pm
Infinite number of universes ? I've only saw the 16 + 20 min lecture of his. I'll try to find more about what he says, cause many things are good food for thought. But it's strange that he believes in infinite universes since he probably stands with the copenhaga interpretation not with the many-worlds one.
Tbh it seems like he is somewhat of a showman and got a lot of inspiration directly or indirectly from Buddhism.
The scientific theories are eons behind the Dhamma but i think the experiments are good to know because they complement the Dhamma and is something people can get a lot of conviction from.
One thing that we understand from modern science and astronomy is that there is nothing permanent. All phenomena ( damma) is subject to momentary changes as the universe or universes is in an eternal flux and rotation. Though nirvana is a state that does not create or originate and is, boundless as said in Bahiya sutta, we cannot hence sugest it to be permanent.
The only permanent thing in this damma is impermanence.

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cappuccino
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Re: Why is Nirvana permanent?

Post by cappuccino » Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:19 am

nirvana is a refuge


annihilation isn't a refuge

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