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Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:37 am
by ground
Now that is really funny. The words are written there yet there is desire for other words.
Why is this?

Kind regards

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:13 am
by mikenz66
TMingyur wrote:Now that is really funny. The words are written there yet there is desire for other words.
Why is this?
Because there appears to be some disagreement about what the words mean. Clearly Retro understands them in a different way to how I do, based on his comments about how others have explained and practised the Dhamma. He is, of course, free to post what he likes, but it is much easier to snipe at other approaches than to clearly explain one's own.

:anjali:
Mike

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:54 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Mike,

There is no sniping - merely a preference for Buddhavacana over speculation and other words.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:10 am
by piotr
Hi guys,
Cittasanto wrote:just to chip in my nonsense
to my understanding Dependent Arising correlates to the Second Noble Truth and Dependent Cessation with the Third Noble Truth, See DN22 for an example, and to check.
Actually this is explicitly stated in Tittha Sutta (AN 3.61):

  • "And what is the noble truth of the origination of stress?

    "From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. (...) From birth as a requisite condition, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

    "This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

    "And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress?

    "From the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. (...) From the cessation of birth, then old age & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

    "This is called the noble truth of the cessation of stress.

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:33 am
by mikenz66
retrofuturist wrote: There is no sniping - merely a preference for Buddhavacana over speculation and other words.
Great! Same here.

:anjali:
Mike

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:09 am
by mikenz66
Hi piotr,
piotr wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:just to chip in my nonsense
to my understanding Dependent Arising correlates to the Second Noble Truth and Dependent Cessation with the Third Noble Truth, See DN22 for an example, and to check.
Actually this is explicitly stated in Tittha Sutta (AN 3.61):
...
Thanks, that's a very useful reference!

:anjali:
Mike

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:24 am
by piotr
Hi retrofuturist,
retrofuturist wrote:Indeed. Which is why I found it odd that the "uninstructed run-of-the-mill person" viewpoint was being valorized, in preference to the Dhamma-Eye.
How did you come to the conclusion that "this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more" is a viewpoint of puthujjana?

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:47 am
by Cittasanto
piotr wrote:Hi guys,
Cittasanto wrote:just to chip in my nonsense
to my understanding Dependent Arising correlates to the Second Noble Truth and Dependent Cessation with the Third Noble Truth, See DN22 for an example, and to check.
Actually this is explicitly stated in Tittha Sutta (AN 3.61):
I knew it was somewhere and DN22 didn't specifically support of denounce it, but could be interpreted to incline in that way, however memory is fuzzy and not got the resources now to check references properly yet.

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:58 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Piotr,
piotr wrote:How did you come to the conclusion that "this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more" is a viewpoint of puthujjana?
From the sutta itself. "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements..."

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:04 am
by piotr
Hi Manapa,

That's funny because I always had a trouble with finding this passage too. I was convinced that it's somewhere in Sacca-samyutta of Samyutta-nikaya.

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:10 am
by piotr
Hi retrofuturist
retrofuturist wrote:From the sutta itself. "It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements"
The sutta says that the more preferable viewpoint of puthujjana is to hold body as a self. It doesn't say that "body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more" is a viewpoint of putthujana and therefore should be abandoned.

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:18 am
by retrofuturist
Greetings Piotr,
Piotr wrote:It doesn't say that "body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more" is a viewpoint of putthujana and therefore should be abandoned.
Well if the initial sutta reference alone was insufficient for you, cross reference it with MN 1 and you'll see even more clearly that it is putthujana view to be abandoned...
The Putthujana

The Blessed One said: "There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — perceives earth as earth. Perceiving earth as earth, he conceives [things] about earth, he conceives [things] in earth, he conceives [things] coming out of earth, he conceives earth as 'mine,' he delights in earth. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I tell you.

(repeated for the other three elements)

The Trainee

"A monk who is a trainee — yearning for the unexcelled relief from bondage, his aspirations as yet unfulfilled — directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, let him not conceive things about earth, let him not conceive things in earth, let him not conceive things coming out of earth, let him not conceive earth as 'mine,' let him not delight in earth. Why is that? So that he may comprehend it, I tell you.

(repeated for the other three elements)

The Arahant

"A monk who is a Worthy One, devoid of mental fermentations — who has attained completion, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, destroyed the fetters of becoming, and is released through right knowledge — directly knows earth as earth. Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I tell you.

(repeated for the other three elements)
So not only does SN 12.61: Assutavā (Uninstructed) Sutta call it putthujana view, but MN 1: Mulapariyaya Sutta calls it putthujana view and explicitly says it should be abandoned, in order for proper comprehension to occur.

Identifying with the body is Putthujana-eye, not Dhamma-eye.

Metta,
Retro. :)

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:45 am
by piotr
Hi retrofuturist,
retrofuturist wrote:Identifying with the body is Putthujana-eye, not Dhamma-eye.
That's exactly what I've said. But you've suggested that not only holding a body as self but also seeing it as standing for a year or more is a wrong view.

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:11 pm
by vinasp
Hi Retro,

Just answer the question Retro.

How long does a view last?

SN 12.61 does not answer that question.

Perhaps you cannot answer it.

Regards, Vincent.

Re: The Dhamma eye: "whatever aising-dhamma cessation-dhamma"

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:40 pm
by pulga
Extirpating asmimána doesn’t require us to sacrifice the world’s intelligibility.