Buddha nature

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6623
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Buddha nature

Post by Cittasanto » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:29 pm

greggorious wrote:I haven't moved on, in fact I haven't moved anywhere. I'm more confused than I've ever been. I've practiced Zen for a few years but became interested in Vipassana too, As Zazen is primarily concentration based, and I also want something Insight based. However at the same time I'm not sure how many people who do Vipassana meditation trust their own wisdom through their meditations or still cling to every single thing The Buddha was meant to have said.
you have indicated otherwise
After briefly flirting with the Therevada tradition I think I'll stick just to Zen.
maybe due to our practice, and trust in others who are far more experianced than ourselves there is faith in the Teaching found within the canon?
clinging to the teachings and testing them oneself id better than clinging to a perception of self, or having fixed beliefs.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

User avatar
amtross
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:39 pm

Re: Buddha nature

Post by amtross » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:35 pm

Here's one you might recognize from Zen: Why don't you just sit? Get a good Vipassanna book or a teacher, sit down and see what you see. If you see buddha nature...great. What does that feel like. Is it permanent? or changing?....you get the idea.

May you be well
sean

greggorious
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: Buddha nature

Post by greggorious » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:41 pm

You checking up on me on the zen forum?
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

User avatar
amtross
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:39 pm

Re: Buddha nature

Post by amtross » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:43 pm

if you're talking to me, no

I was refering to my use of the term "just sit", which I've heard used quite often by zen practitioners.

greggorious
Posts: 253
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: Buddha nature

Post by greggorious » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:45 pm

No I wasn't refering to you. Yes I'm well aware of the 'Just sit' statement. Many Zen masters will say 'Why don't you just sit and shut up'.
"The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must not cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.” Ajahn Chah

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6623
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Buddha nature

Post by Cittasanto » Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:52 pm

maybe you should read the thread, there was a link shared earlier.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16302
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Buddha nature

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:36 pm

Hi Aloka,
Aloka wrote:
Dan74 wrote:That may be so, Mike, but as you probably know the term Buddha nature has been in wide circulation in Thai Buddhism, not least in the Forest tradition.
A quote from Ajahn Sumedho former Thai Forest Tradition abbot of Amaravati Monastery UK
...
I presume Dan is referring to Thai forest monks such as Ajahn Maha Bua, with his "true nature of the citta", etc, or some of the other various sub-groups.
Bua sees the essential enduring truth of the sentient being as constituted of the indestructible reality of the citta (heart/mind), which is characterized by the attribute of Awareness or Knowingness. This citta, which is intrinsically bright, clear, and Aware, gets superficially tangled up in samsara but ultimately cannot be destroyed by any samsaric phenomenon. Although Bua is often at pains to emphasise the need for meditation upon the non-Self (anatta), he also points out that the citta, while getting caught up in the vortex of conditioned phenomena, is not subject to destruction as are those things which are impermanent, suffering, and non-Self (anicca, dukkha, anatta). The citta is ultimately not beholden to these laws of conditioned existence. The citta is bright, radiant, and deathless, and is its own independent reality:

'Being intrinsically bright and clear, the citta is always ready to make contact with everything of every nature. Although all conditioned phenomena without exception are governed by the three universal laws of anicca, dukkha, and anattã, the citta’s true nature is not subject to these laws. The citta is conditioned by anicca, dukkha, and anattã only because things that are subject to these laws come spinning in to become involved with the citta and so cause it to spin along with them. However, though it spins in unison with conditioned phenomena, the citta never disintegrates or falls apart. It spins following the influence of those forces which have the power to make it spin, but the true power of the citta’s own nature is that it knows and does not die. This deathlessness is a quality that lies beyond disintegration. Being beyond disintegration, it also lies beyond the range of anicca, dukkha, and anattã and the universal laws of nature. ….'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajahn_Maha ... 27Citta.27" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Buddha nature

Post by Goofaholix » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:39 pm

Dan74 wrote:A quote from Ajahn Sumedho former Thai Forest Tradition abbot of Amaravati Monastery UK
an illusoriness coming from a belief in the perception of the overself, or God or the Oneness or Buddha Nature, or the divine substance or the divine essence, or something like that."
You might want to re-read this quote, I don't think a quote saying the perception of Buddha nature creates illusoriness is really supporting the point that the term Buddha nature has been in wide circulation in Thai Buddhism.

The dhamma talks of many of the western sangha are very eclectic in nature, I'm sure there must be a few that have something positive to say about the concept.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

User avatar
Aloka
Posts: 5760
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:51 pm

Re: Buddha nature

Post by Aloka » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:58 pm

You might want to re-read this quote, I don't think a quote saying the perception of Buddha nature creates illusoriness is really supporting the point that the term Buddha nature has been in wide circulation in Thai Buddhism.
Hi Goof,

My two previous posts are meant to show that from what I've investigated myself, there are forest tradition monks who

don't support the notion of 'Buddha nature'. I wasn't intending to support what Dan74 said !


kind regards,

Aloka

User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 3012
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: Buddha nature

Post by Dan74 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:10 pm

Goofaholix wrote:
Dan74 wrote:A quote from Ajahn Sumedho former Thai Forest Tradition abbot of Amaravati Monastery UK
an illusoriness coming from a belief in the perception of the overself, or God or the Oneness or Buddha Nature, or the divine substance or the divine essence, or something like that."
You might want to re-read this quote, I don't think a quote saying the perception of Buddha nature creates illusoriness is really supporting the point that the term Buddha nature has been in wide circulation in Thai Buddhism.

The dhamma talks of many of the western sangha are very eclectic in nature, I'm sure there must be a few that have something positive to say about the concept.
Hi Goofaholix

You might want to reread the post - it didn't come from me! :D

In addition from what Mike has quoted from Ajahn Maha Boowa, I mean statement like this from Ajahn Chah:
The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must no cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.
The famous talk from Ajahn Dune Atulo which is in his book "The Heart is the Knowing":
This citta, which is our true original nature, is the womb of our being. No one created it and no one can destroy it.
Some time ago I posted a link to a recent PhD thesis here that researched the history of the teachings on Buddha Nature in Thai Buddhism but I cannot find it anymore. I am sure knowledgeable people know about it. Whether it is called "original nature", "original nature", "original mind" as far as can I tell, they all point the same.
_/|\_

User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 2973
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Buddha nature

Post by Goofaholix » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:33 pm

Dan74 wrote:You might want to reread the post - it didn't come from me! :D
Doh! my bad sorry.
Dan74 wrote:
The original heart/mind shines like pure, clear water with the sweetest taste. But if the heart is pure, is our practice over? No, we must no cling even to this purity. We must go beyond all duality, all concepts, all bad, all good, all pure, all impure. We must go beyond self and nonself, beyond birth and death. When we see with the eye of wisdom, we know that the true Buddha is timeless, unborn, unrelated to any body, any history, any image. Buddha is the ground of all being, the realization of the truth of the unmoving mind.
.
Better not let tilt see this "ground of all being" quote. It would be interesting though to see this in Thai to determine if it is a translators interpretation or a direct one to one translation.

But yes I agree with you it's not uncommon for Thai forest masters to talk about Buddha in this way, however I interpret the word Buddha here slightly differently. The word Buddha means "the one who knows", so when one refers to Buddha in this way it's the quality of knowing, awakenedness, and awareness, and of course we all have this capacity we just have to develop it, become it.

To me this is what taking refuge in Buddha means, taking refuge in the process of knowing, of the minds capacity to be awake and aware.

I don't have a problem with this being referred to as "Buddha nature", the problem arises I think when one reify's Buddha nature into some kind of seed, or pseudo-atman, or uses it as a cop out because one doesn't need to practise if one is already enlightened.

It's definately skilful means when understood correctly.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 3012
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: Buddha nature

Post by Dan74 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:53 pm

I agree!
I don't have a problem with this being referred to as "Buddha nature", the problem arises I think when one reify's Buddha nature into some kind of seed, or pseudo-atman, or uses it as a cop out because one doesn't need to practise if one is already enlightened.
No traditions teach that of course! Only modern armchair zennies who've never seen a flesh and blood teacher in their life can fall into this and only for a short while, hopefully!
_/|\_

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16302
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Buddha nature

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:52 pm

Goofaholix wrote: Better not let tilt see this "ground of all being" quote. It would be interesting though to see this in Thai to determine if it is a translators interpretation or a direct one to one translation.
Yes. Shhhhhh! :sage:

Certainly translation can be a problem, and of course there can also be considerable confusion about what various English speakers mean by certain words.

:anjali:
Mike

User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Buddha nature

Post by kirk5a » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:30 pm

greggorious wrote:I see Buddha nature everywhere, within my family, friends, even my Cats, and just because I've turned to Therevada I wont change this belief. :)
How do you see this Buddha nature in your cats? Is it their fur, teeth, claws.. their eyes? Recognition that they are also conscious? Just wondering. Why is it a "belief" if it is something you see? Your don't need to have a "belief" in your cat, because it's right there. So... is this Buddha nature a "belief" or something you actually observe? Maybe you won't feel comfortable answering this pointed a question, but it reminds me of when people say they see "God" in things. I would simply like them to explain what it is they see and how they see it.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

User avatar
Anagarika
Posts: 915
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Buddha nature

Post by Anagarika » Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:54 am

I'll throw in 2 baht on this very interesting discussion.

I read a bit from Ajahn Thanissaro's treatise on Buddha Nature: This is why the Buddha said that the mind is luminous, stained with defilements that come and go. Taken out of context, this statement might be construed as implying that the mind is inherently awakened. But in context the Buddha is simply saying that the mind, once stained, is not permanently stained. When the conditions for the stains are gone, the mind becomes luminous again. But this luminosity is not an awakened nature.

This status of luminosity suggests to me that, rather than the mind having Buddha "nature," the mind has Buddha potential. Inherent potential. This idea of luminosity suggests potential energy that does not convert into momentum until it is released. The analogy of that is the kyudo archer, who draws the bow (potential energy) and by virtue of the meditation, the moment arrives on its own accord and the arrow is released.

By the way, I failed physics in college. I have practiced kyudo, though.

The above is what you get for 2 baht.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: cappuccino, Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 92 guests