Cultivating Hiri and Ottappa

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jackson
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Cultivating Hiri and Ottappa

Post by jackson » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:44 am

Greetings everyone, :smile:
I'm wondering if anyone knows how one would go about cultivating hiri and ottappa (moral shame and moral dread). I've done a little searching but haven't found much, so your input is appreciated.
Thanks!
Jackson
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah

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ground
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Re: Cultivating Hiri and Ottappa

Post by ground » Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:37 am

The prerequsite for moral shame is association with those who are superior to you and whom you admire because of their superiority in terms of the path and sharing your ethical intent with them.
Moral dread is simply fearing the consequences of one's negative actions which has faith and familiarity with these (knowing) as preprequisite.


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Cittasanto
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Re: Cultivating Hiri and Ottappa

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:21 am

just to expand the last posters responce

try imagining someone is watching you do something, does it make you feel uncomfortable? should you be doing it then?

reflect on the danger of doing something! would any particular act bring dukkha or sukkha?
there is also the recolloction of the Devas, and ones own good qualities, & virtue found here
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

chownah
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Re: Cultivating Hiri and Ottappa

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:55 pm

try imagining someone is watching you do something, does it make you feel uncomfortable? should you be doing it then?
I'm not sure if this is good advice or not.....society creates some of our inhibitions and some of them are probably not having alot to do with appropriate shame.....many people feel uncomfortable if someone watches them eliminate bodiliy wastes for example....should they not be doing it then? I really think that the idea in the quote above is just peer pressure which is not always pointing in the right direction.....I guess.....
chownah

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Cittasanto
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Re: Cultivating Hiri and Ottappa

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:21 pm

chownah wrote:
try imagining someone is watching you do something, does it make you feel uncomfortable? should you be doing it then?
I'm not sure if this is good advice or not.....society creates some of our inhibitions and some of them are probably not having alot to do with appropriate shame.....many people feel uncomfortable if someone watches them eliminate bodiliy wastes for example....should they not be doing it then? I really think that the idea in the quote above is just peer pressure which is not always pointing in the right direction.....I guess.....
chownah
underlined is a very important question in this context!
Obviously I was not talking about everything but Actions in a general sense, particularly in regard to the precepts, virtue.
I do go on to point in this direction.
reflect on the danger of doing something! would any particular act bring dukkha or sukkha?
there is also the recolloction of the Devas, and ones own good qualities, & virtue found here
and ones own good qualities are those which do not lead to shame is others who are virtuous find out about it, so a good balancer in the context.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

chownah
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Re: Cultivating Hiri and Ottappa

Post by chownah » Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:31 pm

I'm still not convinced that its good advice.....you may assume that people have some idea of virtue that is similar to yours and you will probably be wrong most of the time.....you may think that this advice is given within some frame of reference and so will the people who hear this advice but their frame of reference will often be different from yours.....this may be good advice for you and some carefully picked people whose views are similar to yours but if you go very far in the world (world in a mundane sense of the globe we live on) you will find that most people don't have the same sense of these things....in Thailand it is a virtue to keep your sox below your shirts and my wife would feel guilty if she put my sox above my shirts.....shame is by and large a culturaly developed manifestation and you can be sure that using the sense of shame that comes from our peers is not going to always point the right way....in fact it seems to me that it would mostly confuse people....I guess...but don't know for sure.
chownah

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Cittasanto
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Re: Cultivating Hiri and Ottappa

Post by Cittasanto » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:31 pm

chownah wrote:I'm still not convinced that its good advice.....you may assume that people have some idea of virtue that is similar to yours and you will probably be wrong most of the time.....you may think that this advice is given within some frame of reference and so will the people who hear this advice but their frame of reference will often be different from yours.....this may be good advice for you and some carefully picked people whose views are similar to yours but if you go very far in the world (world in a mundane sense of the globe we live on) you will find that most people don't have the same sense of these things....in Thailand it is a virtue to keep your sox below your shirts and my wife would feel guilty if she put my sox above my shirts.....shame is by and large a culturaly developed manifestation and you can be sure that using the sense of shame that comes from our peers is not going to always point the right way....in fact it seems to me that it would mostly confuse people....I guess...but don't know for sure.
chownah
I post what I feel is an appropriate response from my own perspective, and people can take it or leave it, or are free to ask further what is meant. but in future I shall only post what you would, and conforms with what you think is, instead from my own perspective.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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amtross
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Re: Cultivating Hiri and Ottappa

Post by amtross » Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:41 pm

I like Joseph Goldstein's discussion of Hiri and Ottappa toward the end of his "Satipatthana Sutta Series. Factors of Awakening: Mindfulness" talk here: http://dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/talk/1965/


i hope this helps
sean

jackson
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Re: Cultivating Hiri and Ottappa

Post by jackson » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:01 pm

Thanks for the replies so far, they've been helpful!
Here is an article on hiri and ottappa by Bhikkhu Bodhi which I found informative, in case anyone's interested...
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_23.html
Thanks again! :smile:
Jackson
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah

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