Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by DNS » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:30 pm

retrofuturist wrote: To borrow a line from the Mahayana tradition, I can see how this could well be one of the 84,000 Dharma Gates.
:thumbsup:

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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by DNS » Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:33 pm

appicchato wrote: the people (mostly one person) are based in Singapore and do many good works concerning Buddhism...including translating, and dispensing many books, CD's, and other material for free (postage too)...not everyone is 'on' the path, nor wants to be...these folks are reaching out, and I believe their hearts are in the right place...if I were asked... :heart:
:thumbsup: I agree. I like the website, it is not for all, but I think it represents a good teaching many Buddhists can relate to and can benefit from. I think it also shows the non-dogmatic nature of Buddhism, for example, the main premise that anyone can go to heaven. Compare with John 3:16, etc.

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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by kc2dpt » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:42 pm

clw_uk wrote:Of course there are christians who consider heaven and hell and the like metaphorical, but they are considerably less in number than those who take them as real, there will always be slight exceptions
It is the same in Buddhism.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by nathan » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:57 pm

I've never been able to get my head around the point of preparing to deal with a metaphorical heaven or hell. I'd deal with the metaphorical suffering involved as well if that were the case. It makes about as much sense to me as working towards an allegorical awakening or a hypothetical maturation of insight wisdom. No need to weary me about how it is all happening in the present. Effectively speak to happening your way out of it continuing to happen from this present onward and you'll have my attention pronto. Spend that time trying to convince me that existence isn't happening also right now in a literal hell or a literal heaven and you are wasting both of our time. We are here, now. Best get to it before the hells or whatever else are as well. The whole modern inclination to blithely dismiss everything unknown to homo-prosaicus as unscientific is about to fall apart before everyone's eyes in the upcoming decades. It will be especially messy for those who have sheltered under the awning of that thin rhetoric. It does seem as if hell is willing to put in an appearance here on earth as an effective challenge to that conventional wisdom already. It also looks like the other team is probably going to sit this one out in the metaphorical grandstands.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}

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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by clw_uk » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:04 pm

Peter wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Of course there are christians who consider heaven and hell and the like metaphorical, but they are considerably less in number than those who take them as real, there will always be slight exceptions
It is the same in Buddhism.

My experience is roughly half each, at leas in west anyway
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by clw_uk » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:07 pm

nathan wrote:I've never been able to get my head around the point of preparing to deal with a metaphorical heaven or hell. I'd deal with the metaphorical suffering involved as well if that were the case. It makes about as much sense to me as working towards an allegorical awakening or a hypothetical maturation of insight wisdom. No need to weary me about how it is all happening in the present. Effectively speak to happening your way out of it continuing to happen from this present onward and you'll have my attention pronto. Spend that time trying to convince me that existence isn't happening also right now in a literal hell or a literal heaven and you are wasting both of our time. We are here, now. Best get to it before the hells or whatever else are as well. The whole modern inclination to blithely dismiss everything unknown to homo-prosaicus as unscientific is about to fall apart before everyone's eyes in the upcoming decades. It will be especially messy for those who have sheltered under the awning of that thin rhetoric. It does seem as if hell is willing to put in an appearance here on earth as an effective challenge to that conventional wisdom already. It also looks like the other team is probably going to sit this one out in the metaphorical grandstands.

Well they arent metaphorical as mind states, they are quite real
Spend that time trying to convince me that existence isn't happening also right now in a literal hell or a literal heaven and you are wasting both of our time. We are here,
I agree that there is heaven and hell right here, right now. They can be entered into at anytime via wholesome or unwholesome intentions

However Buddhism doesnt really hinge on if there is heaven or hell after death, the first noble truth states there is suffering, as in right here


Talking about heaven or hell that might be after death isnt really connected with Dukkha or its quenching and so its not the core of Buddhadhamma, its just going into speculation, reguardless of how real or not they are
To call something a foundation of the Buddhist Teachings is only correct if firstly, it is a principle which aims at the extinction of Dukkha [2] and, secondly, it has a logic that one can see for oneself without having to believe others. These are the important constituents of a foundation.

The Buddha refused to have any dealing with those things which don't lead to the extinction of Dukkha. Take the question of whether or not there. is rebirth. What is reborn? How is it reborn? What is its kammic inheritance [3] ? These questions are not aimed at the extinction of Dukkha. That being so they are not Buddhist teaching and they are not connected with it. They do not lie in the sphere of Buddhism. Also, the one who asks about such matters has no choice but to indis­criminately believe the answer he's given, because the one who answers is not going to be able to produce any proofs, he's just going to speak according to his memory and feeling. The listener can't see for himself and so has to blindly believe "the other's words. Little by little the matter strays from Dhamma until it's something else altogether, unconnected with the extinction of Dukkha.

Now, if one doesn't raise those sort of problems, one can ask instead, "Is there Dukkha?" and "How can Dukkha be extinguished ?". To these questions the Buddha agreed to answer and the listener can see the truth of every word of his answer without having to blindly believe them, see more and more clearly until he understands. And if one understands to the extent of being able to extinguish Dukkha, then that is the ultimate understanding. One knows that, even at this moment, there is no person living; one sees without doubt that there is no self or anything belonging to a self. There is just a feeling of "I" and "mine" arising due to the foolishness whereby one is deluded by the beguiling nature of sense - experience.

Therefore, there being no one born here, there is no one who dies and is reborn. So, the whole Question of rebirth is utterly foolish and nothing to do with Buddhism at all.
Ajhan Buddhadasa

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... o_Tree.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by kc2dpt » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:41 pm

clw_uk wrote:Talking about heaven or hell that might be after death isnt really connected with Dukkha or its quenching
Incorrect. They are precisely connected with understanding the full scope of dukkha.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by salmon » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:13 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Salmon,
salmon wrote:I do not understand why people feel that this website (justbegood) is bad for Buddhism?
I do not think anyone has said it is.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Dear Retro,

Perhaps it is just my ignorant understanding of language, but when I read the following posts (quoted), it does ring out to me that some feel that the website will turn people away from the religion.
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ed,
sukhamanveti wrote:For me it would have had the opposite effect (repulsion), if this had been my first exposure to Buddhism.
Mine too, on account of the reliance on sheer faith.
metta.
~ swimming upstream is tough work! ~

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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by fijiNut » Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:58 am

Hi all,

I own a little booklet published by the author of the website, with the same title. It is a basic introductory booklet to Buddhism with a foreward by Ajahn Brahm who endorses this book, nothing else more to add in that regard.

Whether or not it is good or bad to just aim for 'heaven' or higher realms seems irrelevant to me, the fact that I'm born human in this life indicates without a doubt, there is more work to be done. :cry:

with metta,
fijiNut

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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:43 am

Greetings Salmon,

No, I just meant that it wouldn't have worked for me back in 2005 before I became Buddhist. Back then I found the Four Noble Truths a much better entry point.

As I said though, that's just me.... and not everyone is like me. Hence, why I wanted to find out whether "Anyone can go to heaven, just be good" would work as an entry point to the Dhamma for some people.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by DarkDream » Wed Apr 08, 2009 6:23 am

I haven't looked at the web site in deapth but it appear fine to me. I guess that may surprise some of you who know how I am not really convinced at all in rebirth and obviously different realms.

But I did notice that it is does mention the other metaphorical aspect of it. For example, here it says:
What do we mean by HEAVEN?

Heaven can be said to be a place where we can reborn in after we die. It can also be a state of mind.
Even when it talks about the realms of existence the website says:
Whether these six realms of existence are actual or figurative doesn't really matter. What really matters is to maintain the practice so as to ensure a good rebirth. This is very important as it is only in either a Human realm or a Heavenly realm that we are able to learn and practice the Buddha's Teachings, and thus attain Nibbana.
It sort of contradicts itself a bit (if the six realms are figurative then it doesn't really make sense to practive ensure a good rebirth -- which obviously is in the realms), but at least the website seems fairly accomodating. I don't get the impression that it has a fundamentalist tinge to it where it says you must believe "A" "B" and "C" and this is the only way to interpret it.

As for "Anyone can go to heaven" slogan, I don't see it really that bad. It is just a grabber (convienent way to get people's intention) and I think the point is that it is what actions we do that "leads us to heaven" and not saying you are a member of a religion.

I agree with Venerable Appicchato, I do think they have their heart in the right place.

--DarkDream

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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by christopher::: » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:28 am

DarkDream wrote:
As for "Anyone can go to heaven" slogan, I don't see it really that bad. It is just a grabber (convienent way to get people's intention) and I think the point is that it is what actions we do that "leads us to heaven" and not saying you are a member of a religion.

I agree with Venerable Appicchato, I do think they have their heart in the right place.

--DarkDream
I think so also. Looking at this page, they go into much deeper detail about the path of dharma. The slogan and idea "just be good" is the gateway.

To be honest, while not for everyone, I find this approach refreshing.

:heart:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009

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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by kc2dpt » Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:36 pm

There are some people this would be the best way to catch their attention and there are some people it would not be the best way. I am reminded of the Buddha teaching a householder the right way to worship the six directions (DN 31). I imagine if we saw an article titled "How to worship the six directions" many of us would assume this could have nothing to do with Buddhadhamma. :spy:
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by clw_uk » Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:27 pm

christopher::: wrote:
DarkDream wrote:
As for "Anyone can go to heaven" slogan, I don't see it really that bad. It is just a grabber (convienent way to get people's intention) and I think the point is that it is what actions we do that "leads us to heaven" and not saying you are a member of a religion.

I agree with Venerable Appicchato, I do think they have their heart in the right place.

--DarkDream
I think so also. Looking at this page, they go into much deeper detail about the path of dharma. The slogan and idea "just be good" is the gateway.

To be honest, while not for everyone, I find this approach refreshing.

:heart:

That page still focuses on mundane teachings such as good kamma, bad kamma, good birth, bad birth

Doesnt really go into the core teachings of D.O., Voidness, three marks etc

Still its a good introduction to Buddhism with basic beginer points all covered quite well

Metta
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Re: Anyone can go to heaven, just be good

Post by appicchato » Wed Apr 08, 2009 10:07 pm

clw_uk wrote:That page still focuses on mundane teachings such as good kamma, bad kamma, good birth, bad birth

Doesnt really go into the core teachings of D.O., Voidness, three marks etc
Last night I sent a link to this thread to TY Lee (the website's author) and he responded that he thought, possibly, that people making comments such as this hadn't really taken the time to look at the website in it's entirety...I would agree...

For those interested check out these links...

http://www.justbegood.net/Blessings01Introduction.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
http://www.justbegood.net/Blessings16Conclusion.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

This man is a real gentleman and deserves praise more than criticism...if I were asked...

Be well folks...and Just Be Good too... :smile:

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