"The Deathless" (amata)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:35 pm

Martin Po wrote:It's impossible to uproot greed, hatred and delusion witout Nibbana-element.
So, there is some pre-existing thing that is required for awakening.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

SarathW
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:09 am

Hi Tilt
Your question started my brain ticking. It says “Nibbana is”. If Nibbana is unconditioned how can we say “Nibbana is”

I think answer lie between what Clw and Reflection said:

The Nibbana-element with residue left = “Nibbana is”

and the Nibbana-element with no residue left. = "'the liberated mind that no longer clings' means nibbāna"
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:25 am

SarathW wrote:Hi Tilt
Your question started my brain ticking. It says “Nibbana is”. If Nibbana is unconditioned how can we say “Nibbana is”

I think answer lie between what Clw and Reflection said:

The Nibbana-element with residue left = “Nibbana is”

and the Nibbana-element with no residue left. = "'the liberated mind that no longer clings' means nibbāna"
:)
"Nibbana is" what?

"Nibbana-element" means what?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

SarathW
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:29 am

I thought we agreed on this!
Orville ;)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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reflection
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by reflection » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:30 am

Nibbana without residue is not the non clinging mind. Taken as a whole, the suttas speak of two levels of cessation. First level, cessation of clinging - nibbana with residue remaining, the residue being a living arahant. Second level, cessation of the aggregates - nibbana without residue remaining, after death of an arahant. There is no more death from then on, because there is no rebirth, so here suffering really ended.

After attaining the first cessation, the second is an unavoidable result. So one can say, with attaining cessation of clinging one has attained the deathless (no more dying) while technically there will still be another death.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:45 am

Hi Reflection
There is no first death. Attaining Nibbana is not death. There is no second death just the elements went back to its original state.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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reflection
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by reflection » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:54 am

I don't understand what you are saying. I think you may have misunderstood my post. What do you mean with first death and second death? I only mentioned one: obviously the Buddha still had to die after his enlightenment and so do all other enlightened beings. But that will be the last death.

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:11 am

Hi Reflection
The way I understand is that we do not die but continually (every second) we change into something else.
The same way a caterpillar change to a butterfly
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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reflection
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by reflection » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:13 am

Well, perhaps visit a cemetery to know what I mean. ;)

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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:24 am

:mrgreen:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Martin Po
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Martin Po » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:17 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Martin Po wrote:It's impossible to uproot greed, hatred and delusion witout Nibbana-element.
So, there is some pre-existing thing that is required for awakening.
Yes, but it exist only in reference to samsara. Like 0 and 1.
When some one is in jail, there is conception/idea/namarupa of liberty for him; You can be freed only when you are enchained. But if you are already free, there is no such conception/idea/namarupa as liberty, because liberty is not-existent, only jail is existent, that why jail can be finished, but not liberty.

Nibbana-element is in other side of our consciousness (SN 55.5, MN 44), consciousness is a result of Nibbana-element. Without pure element, on which information becomes apparent, there is no consciousness. Like without a white paper ink not becomes apparent.
Like a sound and silence, movement and stability stability, 1 and 0, etc.

Can we say that there is sound without silence? No.
Can we say that there is silence-element? Yes we can.
But do it realy "exist"? No, because silence become apparent in comparison of sound. Because silence is not-sound, absence of sound, and have no any other quality, only a non-sound quality.
It is possible to be liberated from sound without silence? No.
At the same way, it is impossible to be liberated from jail if there is no freedom. No.
At the same way it is impossible to "be liberated" from Samsara if there is no Nibbana. No.
But Nibbana-element have any quality other than non-Samsara, non-dukkha, non-agging, non-death etc? No.

Ud 8.1 PTS: Ud 80
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)
...
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:45 am

Martin Po wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Martin Po wrote:It's impossible to uproot greed, hatred and delusion witout Nibbana-element.
So, there is some pre-existing thing that is required for awakening.
Yes, but it exist only in reference to samsara. Like 0 and 1.
And so how does that differ from Brahman?
When some one is in jail, there is conception/idea/namarupa of liberty for him; You can be freed only when you are enchained. But if you are already free, there is no such conception/idea/namarupa as liberty, because liberty is not-existent, only jail is existent, that why jail can be finished, but not liberty.
This makes no sense.
Nibbana-element is in other side of our consciousness (SN 55.5, MN 44), consciousness is a result of Nibbana-element. Without pure element, on which information becomes apparent, there is no consciousness. Like without a white paper ink not becomes apparent.
Like a sound and silence, movement and stability stability, 1 and 0, etc.
Now you are talking Hinduism or Neo-Platonism.

Ud 8.1 PTS: Ud 80
Nibbāna Sutta: Unbinding (1)
...
There is that dimension, monks, where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished,[1] unevolving, without support [mental object].[2] This, just this, is the end of stress.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
There is not a thing in this text -- nothing -- that requires a self-existent thing as a precursor to awakening.

I would suggest that you take the time to read through this thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Martin Po
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Martin Po » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:08 am

Without 1 there is no more 0.
Nibbana without resedue, have no residue.
There is no a hole of eaten doughnut.

For one Arahant Nibbana-element exist until there is Arahant's body, with passing away of this body, there is no more Nibbana-element. Nothink remain. No resedue.
Nothnig dont mean somethink, nothink mean nothing.

Perharps i dont understand what is your objection about. But if you mean that there is no suffering, no cause, no cessation, no way - you are wrong. If you just point out anatta - you a right, but there is also such phenomenon as ignorance, craving, grasping and others defilements. We can not clean and purify somethink what have no clean and pure quality.

It's impossible to uproot greed, hatred and delusion without Nibbana-element, without wisdom-element. between 1 and 0 there is no concatc, even between 0,00..01 and 0 there is no contact, and 0,00..01 remain on endless distance from 0. Zero is uproot-element. It's not some reflection or idea, it is possible experiance.

PS i dont speak about Nibbana as "liberation", i speak about Nibbana as "cessation".

I can said nothing more to illustrate Nibbana-element, so if you convinced that there is no cessation on suffering, there is no 3 Noble truth, and you dont belief Buddha's teaching is Pali Canon, i can not help you to understand it.

With metta.
Last edited by Martin Po on Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:12 am

Martin Po wrote:Without 1 there is no more 0.
Nibbana without resedue, have no residue.
There is no a hole of eaten doughnut.

For one Arahant Nibbana-element exist until there is Arahant's body, with passing away of this body, there is no more Nibbana-element. Nothink remain. No resedue.
Nothnig dont mean somethink, nothink mean nothing.

Perharps i dont understand what is your objection about. But if you mean that there is no suffering, no cause, no cessation, no way - you are wrong. If you just point out anatta - you a right, but there is also such phenomenon as ignorance, craving, grasping and others defilements. We can not clean and purify somethink what have no clean and pure quality.

PS i dont speak about Nibbana as "liberation of somethink", i speak about Nibbana as cessation of movement.
I realize English is not your first language; however, what you are saying here makes little sense, and has no basis in the suttas. Again, take the time and read through this thread carefully.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Martin Po
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Martin Po » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:24 am

There is basis in sutta about Nibbana-dhatu, about cessation.
There is also Thannisaro Bhikkhu and Ajhan Mun, if you are not agree with Buddha and others experianced practitioners, it's up to you.

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