Tantric Theravada?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Kim OHara
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Kim OHara » Sun Jul 21, 2013 11:11 am

gavesako wrote:... In sharp contrast the weikza-lam promises not the termination of samsaric life in nibbana but rather its indefinite prolongation through the attainment of virtual immortality as a weikza-do or Buddhist wizard ...
Hello, bhante,
Reading this, I wondered whether there are any connections between this tradition and the esoteric Taoist traditions, on the other side of the Chinese border, which likewise aim for immortality. Have you come across any links?

:namaste:
Kim

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gavesako
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by gavesako » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:25 pm

Kim OHara wrote:
gavesako wrote:... In sharp contrast the weikza-lam promises not the termination of samsaric life in nibbana but rather its indefinite prolongation through the attainment of virtual immortality as a weikza-do or Buddhist wizard ...
Hello, bhante,
Reading this, I wondered whether there are any connections between this tradition and the esoteric Taoist traditions, on the other side of the Chinese border, which likewise aim for immortality. Have you come across any links?

:namaste:
Kim
I am not really sure but I would not be surprised if there were some connections between them.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Shunyata Vajra
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Shunyata Vajra » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:07 pm

Dan74 wrote:I am not knowledgeable about these things, but there seems to be confusion about various things in this thread. Tantra, at least as it is practiced in Tibetan Buddhism, is not magic, is not concerned with immortality or special powers, as far as I can tell. Its sole purpose is attaining enlightenment.
dear dan,

in many sadhanas you can find lower activities, which usually include magic rites of different kinds. And the main purpose of yidam deity is to obtain siddhis, wordly and ultimate both. And of course we can find many long life sadhanas, for at least prolonging our lives, if not immortality. But one of the stages in vajrayana is called "rigdzin/vidyadhara of immortality".

best regards!

:namaste:

Justsit
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Justsit » Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:32 pm

Shunyata Vajra wrote:in many sadhanas you can find lower activities, which usually include magic rites of different kinds. And the main purpose of yidam deity is to obtain siddhis, wordly and ultimate both. And of course we can find many long life sadhanas, for at least prolonging our lives, if not immortality. But one of the stages in vajrayana is called "rigdzin/vidyadhara of immortality".
May I ask, in which lineage do you practice?

Shunyata Vajra
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Shunyata Vajra » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:55 am

Justsit wrote:
Shunyata Vajra wrote:in many sadhanas you can find lower activities, which usually include magic rites of different kinds. And the main purpose of yidam deity is to obtain siddhis, wordly and ultimate both. And of course we can find many long life sadhanas, for at least prolonging our lives, if not immortality. But one of the stages in vajrayana is called "rigdzin/vidyadhara of immortality".
May I ask, in which lineage do you practice?
Nyingma

Justsit
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Justsit » Wed Sep 18, 2013 12:33 pm

Shunyata Vajra wrote:
Justsit wrote:
Shunyata Vajra wrote:in many sadhanas you can find lower activities, which usually include magic rites of different kinds. And the main purpose of yidam deity is to obtain siddhis, wordly and ultimate both. And of course we can find many long life sadhanas, for at least prolonging our lives, if not immortality. But one of the stages in vajrayana is called "rigdzin/vidyadhara of immortality".
May I ask, in which lineage do you practice?
Nyingma
Ah, OK. The qualities mentioned above may not be applicable to the practices of some of the other lineages.
But that is a discussion for our sister Mahayana/Vajrayana site at Dharmawheel.net.

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gavesako
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by gavesako » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:20 pm

Supernatural powers are cited as the factors behind recent high-profile accidents in Thailand, namely the botched landing of a Thai Airways plane at Bangkok′s main airport earlier this week.
The newspaper has also quoted Mr. Chotisak Asapaviriya, a former director of Airports Authority of Thailand (AOT), as saying that he had organised a regular prayer session to placate the vengeful spirits which reside in the airport vicinity.
Thai Rath helpfully points out that 8 major shrines have been built around Suvarnabhumi Airport by the staff in order to ward off evil spirits, such as a shrine dedicated to the Naga (holy big snake in Buddhist myths) which is presumably angered by construction of the airport on what was once a swamp inhabited by snakes.
Dr. Smith Thammasaroj, former director of Suvarnnabhumi Airport, told Thai Rath he was convinced of the existence of supernatural entities around the airport even though, he admitted, he had never encountered any particular case personally.
The scientist who once headed Thailand′s Meteorological Department said he had invited so many psychics to conduct ceremonies and constructed so many shrines "that I can′t keep count".
"We even had to build a condominium for the ghosts to reside," Dr. Smith said, "Because the spirits are so many individual spirit houses won′t be enough".
"There have been more deaths than usual. Many have suggested that the Ministry of Transport needs a large-scale merit-making ceremony" Mr. Chatchart said.

Recent Transport Disasters Blamed On Spirits
http://www.khaosod.co.th/en/view_newson ... =&catid=03

The spirits will be happy... :woohoo:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Kim OHara
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Kim OHara » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:38 pm

Thank you for that, bhante, although I don't know whether the appropriate response is
:rolleye: or :alien: or :jawdrop: or just
:rofl:

:namaste:
Kim

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tiltbillings
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:06 pm

Kim OHara wrote:Thank you for that, bhante, although I don't know whether the appropriate response is
:rolleye: or :alien: or :jawdrop: or just
:rofl:

:namaste:
Kim
I would not be so judgmental. That is simply Thailand/Southeast Asia. The older beliefs still have their say, even if clothed in Brahmanical/Buddhist trappings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Kim OHara
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:55 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Kim OHara wrote:Thank you for that, bhante, although I don't know whether the appropriate response is
:rolleye: or :alien: or :jawdrop: or just
:rofl:

:namaste:
Kim
I would not be so judgmental. That is simply Thailand/Southeast Asia. The older beliefs still have their say, even if clothed in Brahmanical/Buddhist trappings.
Judgemental? Me??
I suppose so, but not in a totally negative, "These guys must be nuts!" way.
I have no problem with acknowledging both spiritual realities and technological realities but failing to distinguish between them strikes me as odd and potentially dangerous. In the West we have made that distinction (and made it work for us) since the days of Cromwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_in_G ... powder_dry) and Ben Franklin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helps_ ... themselves) - if not all the way back to JC and his "render unto Caesar" rule.
As a purely practical matter I really want the guys on the ground at the airport, next time I fly in, to have followed their maintenance manuals whether or not they have also made offerings to the nagas.

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by ricebowl » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:45 pm

"Mahaka Sutta: About Mahaka" (SN 41.4), translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Access to Insight, 2 July 2010, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html . Retrieved on 4 March 2013 (Offline Edition 2013.03.04.11).

Matteo1972
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Matteo1972 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:39 am

Dan74 wrote:I am not knowledgeable about these things, but there seems to be confusion about various things in this thread. Tantra, at least as it is practiced in Tibetan Buddhism, is not magic, is not concerned with immortality or special powers, as far as I can tell. Its sole purpose is attaining enlightenment.
Anyone made it ?

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mirco
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by mirco » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:15 pm

rowboat wrote:Here is some contact information for Bana Bhante.
These people should be able to help you if there are any translations of Venerable Bana Bhante: rajbanavihara@gmail.com
Thank you, rowboat.

Here is what I got from there: Sermon Of The Ariyasāvaka Sādhanānanda Mahāthera (Banabhante)


Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." - Bhikkhu Anālayo

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gavesako
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by gavesako » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:46 pm

Nice illustration of a yogavacara monk from Siam in the Ayutthaya period performing some kind of magic:
Yogavacara fire.jpg
Yogavacara fire.jpg (120.29 KiB) Viewed 1321 times
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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form
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by form » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:20 am

A lersi is a type of theravada tantric?

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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Mar 18, 2017 5:45 pm

form wrote:A lersi is a type of theravada tantric?
Lersi or reusii (ฤษี) is just the Thai pronunciation of the Sanskrit ṛṣī (Pali isi), meaning a hermit or sage. He might practise tantric methods, but not necessarily.

Caodemarte
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Caodemarte » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:37 pm

Dan74 wrote:I am not knowledgeable about these things, but there seems to be confusion about various things in this thread. Tantra, at least as it is practiced in Tibetan Buddhism, is not magic, is not concerned with immortality or special powers, as far as I can tell. Its sole purpose is attaining enlightenment.
The term Tantric Theravada is often used for magic, the quest for supernatural powers, and various practices, including forms of meditation, some of which apparently survived from actual Tantric Hinduism and Tantric Buddhism (which predate Theravada in the region). It is a confused term for a confused situation! It must be doubly so for those used to Tibetan Tantric Buddhism.

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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:56 am

Caodemarte wrote:It is a confused term for a confused situation! It must be doubly so for those used to Tibetan Tantric Buddhism.
The coiners of terms like “Tantric Theravāda” and “Theravāda Tantrism” are following the practice in academic Buddhist and Hindu studies of defining what counts as ‘tantric’ and what does not in a polythetic manner (i.e. based on Wittgenstein’s conception of “family resemblances”) rather than the monothetic way that would be employed by Tibetans.

As Donald Lopez summarizes the approach:
  • Another approach would be to employ the notion of polythetic classification. In monothetic classification, the composition of a conceptual class is determined by the invariable presence of certain common properties found in each and every member of that class. In a polythetic classification, however, no single feature is deemed necessary or sufficient for inclusion in the class. The members of the class do not share a single feature in common, but are grouped together based on the greatest number of features in common, with no a priori decision as to the relative importance of these multiple features. Under a polythetic classification, tantra, instead of being reduced to some essence, would constitute the intersection of certain of a larger number of family resemblances. The features constituting this family serve as descriptions rather than criteria. Among these features, one would immediately include elements such as those listed by Gombrich in his definition above, that is, elements that commonly occur in texts called tantras, such as mantras, mudrās, and maṇḍalas. To these one could quickly add the importance of the guru, abhiṣekha (empowerment), vajra (diamond or thunderbolt), sukha (bliss), sahaja (“together-born”), and siddhis (powers). From here, one could move to traditional characterizations of tantra as a form of practice that is secret, easy, and rapid in its effect, based upon the premise that reality resides in the mundane. In modern studies, tantric texts are described as highly ritualistic, antinomian, and nonspeculative, evincing nonduality and often setting forth an elaborate esoteric physiology of cakras and nāḍīs that give special importance to the genitals.

    Elaborations on Emptiness: Uses of the Heart Sutra. p. 86

form
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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by form » Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:56 am

Tantric the Tibetan and Taoist style involved the transmutation of libido energy towards higher level. They also have techniques that move chi around the body. Their confirmation signs are very obvious. This is a vast difference from relatively more conservative Theravada meditation approach which I feel have missing elements not explained fully in their canon, leading to many different views.

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Re: Tantric Theravada?

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:05 am

form wrote:Tantric the Tibetan and Taoist style involved the transmutation of libido energy towards higher level. They also have techniques that move chi around the body. Their confirmation signs are very obvious. This is a vast difference from relatively more conservative Theravada meditation approach which I feel have missing elements not explained fully in their canon, leading to many different views.
Isn't the point that the "Tantric Theravada" is being used to describe the "less conservative" Theravada approaches? For example, the Dhammakaya approach involves visualisations, Thanissaro Bhikhu talks about energy practices which his teachers explored, and so on.

:heart:
Mike

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